Full Day Hansard Transcript (Legislative Council, 18 June 1998, Corrected Copy)

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL

GENERAL PURPOSE STANDING COMMITTEES
______

GENERAL PURPOSE STANDING COMMITTEE No. 5

Thursday, 18 June 1998

Examination of proposed expenditure for the portfolio areas

INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY, FORESTRY, PORTS AND WESTERN SYDNEY

The Committee met at 5.00 p.m.

MEMBERS

The Hon. R. S. L. Jones (Chair)

The Hon. R. T. M. Bull

The Hon. Jan Burnswoods

The Hon. C. J. S. Lynn

The Hon. Carmel Tebbutt

______

PRESENT

The Hon. K. M. Yeadon, Minister for Information Technology, Minister for Forestry, Minister for Ports, and Minister Assisting the Premier on Western Sydney

State Forests of New South Wales

Dr B. Smith,

Chief Executive Officer

Mr R. Wheeler,

General Manager, Finance

Mr K. Uebel,

Executive Officer

Mr B. White,

Manager, Executive Support Unit

Mr P. Sykes,

Ministerial Officer

Ministry for Forests and Marine Administration

Mr M. Taylor,

Acting Secretary

Mr W. Watkins,

Chief Executive Officer, Waterways Authority

Mr B. Stanwell,

Manager, Marine Ministerial Holding Corporation

Mr K. Bywater,

Finance Manager, Waterways Authority

Mr T. Middleton,

General Manager, Policy, Planning and Research, Waterways Authority

Office of Information Technology

Mr J. Leek,

Acting Director

Mr R. Wheeler,

Manager, Electronic Services

Office of Western Sydney

Ms M. Ryan,

Acting Deputy Director-General

Minister's Staff

Ms J. Evans,

Chief of Staff

Mr H. Pintos-Lopez,

Senior Policy Adviser

Mr A. Walton,

Senior Media Adviser

Ms F. Bentley,

Media Adviser

Mr S. Oliver,

Policy Adviser

Mr D. Munro,

Departmental Liaison Officer

Mr D. Halliday,

Assistant to Chief of Staff

Mr T. Scherl,

Departmental Liaison Officer

Mr M. Matchett,

Departmental Liaison Officer

Ms B. Segers,

Parliamentary Liaison Officer

______

Page 2

CHAIR: I declare General Purpose Standing Committee No. 5 open. Before questions commence, I remind Committee members that at the hearing on 2 June 1997 the Committee authorised the broadcasting of these public proceedings. Should it be considered that the broadcasting of these proceedings be discontinued, a member will be required to move a motion accordingly. At this meeting the Committee will examine the proposed expenditure from the Consolidated Fund for the portfolio area of Information Technology, Forestry, Ports and Western Sydney. Before questions commence, some procedural matters need to be dealt with.

While paragraph 7 of the budget estimates reference provides that a member of a Committee, and any Minister present to answer questions, may have staff present to assist them during the hearing of evidence and may refer to those staff at any time, I remind members’ staff and any other persons that they should take care not to interrupt proceedings and that they should observe the usual courtesies which apply to a meeting of the House or of a Committee. Where possible, messages for members should be given through the attendant on duty or to the Committee Clerks.

Members of the media, the Committee resolved on 2 June 1997 that the press and public be admitted to proceedings of the Committee. I wish to explain to you what is required by the standing order of the Legislative Council in this regard so that you will be aware of the position. Legislative Council Standing Order 252 provides:

Evidence taken by any Select Committee of the House, and documents presented to such Committee which have not been reported to the House, may not, except with the permission of the Committee, be disclosed or published by any Member of such Committee or by any other person.

In my opinion, these disclosures are inconsistent with the requirements of the Public Finance and Audit Regulation 1995 and Treasurer’s Direction. I have been unable to ascertain the values of the asset classes requiring separate disclosure. The same situation existed in the previous year and caused me to

Page 5
qualify my audit opinion on the financial report relating to the year ended 30 June 1996.

He pointed out State Forests’ non-compliance with Accounting Standard AA54 "Depreciation of Non-current Assets". He concluded, at page 52 of the annual report:

These matters may have a significant but as yet unquantifiable effect on the Commission’s financial position, operations and viability.

Do you not agree that this is a most unsatisfactory situation, and when are you going to fix the matters referred to in the Auditor-General’s report?

Mr YEADON: State Forests’ 1996-97 annual report included a qualified audit opinion concerning native forest asset valuations and policy uncertainties which may affect the financial performance of State Forests in the future. The Auditor-General’s qualification was due to non-disclosure of separate asset categories for land, roads and bridges, and growing stock, which was seen as inconsistent with the rest of the Public Finance and Audit Act 1995. The Valuer-General determined the value of the forest assets, including underlying land and integral roads and bridges. The Valuer-General’s Office noted that it considered timber to be an integral part of the land and as such it is not feasible to ascertain separate values.

In view of the Auditor-General’s valuation and comments, State Forests reported the aggregated value of forest assets. The uncertainties raised by the Auditor-General were in two categories. The first category was valuation of forest assets. It was pointed out by the Auditor-General that the valuation methodology was dependent on the accuracy of the data provided by State Forests. This is considered to be unavoidable as any valuation methodology adopted would require the valuer to rely on information supplied by State Forests. However, the integrity of the valuation relies on the skill and capability of the valuer.

In any event, the valuation of the total forest asset is relevant and appropriate, and would not change in the event that valuations for component assets could be determined. State Forests has also prepared sensitivity analyses which demonstrate that the valuation is not materially sensitive to the data provided to the Valuer-General. Accounting experts from one of the larger big six accounting firms have been consulted on this complex issue. They support the State Forests approach to the valuation as being the only realistic valuation option available to the organisation at this time. Currently, there is no accounting standard that provides guidance for the valuation of forests.

The Australian Accounting Research Foundation is currently developing a new accounting standard for self-generating and regenerating assets. That is in exposure draft format at present. State Forests has provided submissions to the foundation on the practical difficulties associated with valuing individual components of native forest assets. The valuation methodology utilised by State Forests for its softwood plantations over the past six years is supported by the exposure draft. The second matter relates to the Government’s forestry reform package. The uncertainty referred to by the Auditor-General at the time of the audit has been reduced by the efforts of State Forests to implement the Government’s policy since its announcement.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: On page 14 of the Budget Speech the Treasurer said:

Over the last three years, the Government has declared forty-nine new parks and reserves at a total cost of almost $50 million. In 1998-99 the Government will spend $15 million on the establishment of new national parks and regional parks, including $14.2 million for the Jervis Bay National Park.

Recently we were told that the Government intends to create an additional 52 national parks and wilderness areas. Where will those parks be created? What impact will that have on resource security for the timber industry, which has already lost about 50 per cent of its resource to the reserve system? How many State forests, or parts thereof, will be included in these 52 new national parks and wilderness areas?

Mr YEADON: Most of that question should be referred to the Minister for the Environment. However, having said that, I inform the honourable member that comprehensive regional assessments are being undertaken across New South Wales of the need for proper and appropriate conservation either in national parks, forests, flora and fauna reserves or whatever other protection mechanisms may be determined by the Government. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition may be aware that the proposal for Eden is currently on public exhibition. The bulk of the work on that proposal is being undertaken by the State and Federal governments and New South Wales stakeholders. The comprehensive regional assessment will be determined within the next few months.

The next areas to be dealt with will be the upper and lower north-east areas of New South Wales and the coastal upper and lower north-eastern areas. The Government hopes to conclude that stage of the process by the end of this year. Community groups and stakeholders are involved in deliberations. The Government cannot be precise about the conclusion dates but it is committed to concluding the investigation of those two areas by the end of this year. It will then proceed to complete comprehensive regional assessments of the southern
Page 6
and western regions of New South Wales. The number of national parks and the areas in which they will be located, especially in terms of State Forests’ contribution, will not be conclusively determined until the assessments are completed.

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: Is the Minister aware that an officer of the National Parks and Wildlife Service allegedly told the recent meeting of the North East Forest Forum that forum members would have to compromise quality of information in the assessment process to conclude the RFA before the next State election? Does the Minister agree that such a compromise would automatically compromise the validity of the outcome of the process? Will the Minister direct State Forests not to make such a compromise, and will he seek a similar direction from his colleague the Minister for the Environment?

Mr YEADON: I am not aware of the statement by a National Parks and Wildlife Service officer.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: Does the Minister agree that such a statement could have been made?

Mr YEADON: It may have happened but I am certainly not aware of it. I am not aware of the context in which the statement was made and, therefore, I do not think it is appropriate for me to comment on it.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: Given that State Forests has had to purchase about 17,000 hectares of land to continue the plantation program, the cost of which has had a disastrous effect on the State Forests balance sheet, what does the Minister intend to do to place the hardwood program on a sustainable commercial footing and to develop markets of hardwood plantation pulpwood?

Mr YEADON: We have the annuity program to which I referred earlier and emergence of the exciting proposal to trade carbon emission credits. Frankly, the initiative of carbon emission trading credits will put the economics of hardwood plantation development beyond doubt. I have always been of the view that projected wood demand in the Pacific rim will increase into the next century and up to 2020, which will provide a good return on hardwood resource, particularly Australian eucalypt which exhibits some outstanding timber features in both structural hardness and aesthetic quality.

It is clear from discussions with potential investors that there is a projected demand. However, emergence of carbon emission trading and the scope for financial development and return from that trading will put the economics of hardwood plantation beyond doubt. Of course, for State Forests that is a good investment in the future as it will return considerable dividends over time from the joint venture hardwood plantation in which it has been directly involved. It will return great benefits to the New South Wales community, particularly to regional and rural communities, as the development of these hardwood plantations will ensure an ongoing sustainable hardwood resource for our community and for export into international markets.

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: Of the 26,000 hectares of hardwood plantation timber in State Forests when the Carr Government came to office, how much has been included or is currently being considered for inclusion in the reserve system in New South Wales?

Page 7

Mr YEADON: The Government has an active program that uses currently underutilised agricultural lands and returns them to production via joint venture forestry plantations. The majority of these lands have been cleared for agriculture and have low nature conservation value. The hardwood plantation program is a key part of the Government’s forest policy and seeks to develop a core hardwood plantation estate that can provide a long-term resource for the native timber industry, reduce reliance on regrowth native forest, promote rural employment and sustain rural communities. By the end of 1997-98 we expect to have established nearly 13,000 hectares of native eucalypt plantation.

This means that the total State owned or managed hardwood plantation estates in New South Wales will have increased by more than 45 per cent. To be consistent with the Government’s native vegetation reforms, plantation establishment proposals that require clearance of native vegetation must comply with the Native Vegetation Conservation Act. While this Act contains exemptions for private native forestry and clearing of planted native vegetation, other forms of clearing require approval and are assessed under the Act in line with other applications. Assessments are comprehensive and thorough and naturally may take some time to complete.

Compliance with the Act is not affecting our achievements under the hardwood plantation program. The Native Vegetation Conservation Act allows also for the establishment of codes of practice to regulate the clearing of native vegetation for the purposes specified in the particular code. The Department of Land and Water Conservation and State Forests are developing a code of practice setting criteria across industry for clearing associated with establishment of plantations. A draft code is expected to be finished in the next few weeks and will then be released for public comment. Once approved, clearing that is consistent with the code will be exempt from the need for further development consent.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: How much of the 26,000 hectares is currently being considered for inclusion in the reserve system?

Mr YEADON: Of the hardwood plantation?

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: Yes.

Mr YEADON: None of it is being considered for conservation. Indeed, under the harvest plantation program, plantations will be accredited before being put into place and, therefore, will come under the Harvest Guarantee Act.

[Time expired.]

The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: Minister, I refer to the annual report of State Forests for 1996-97. Can you give the Committee more details of the Government’s announcements regarding the role of plantations in the greenhouse gas emission reduction strategy?

Mr YEADON: Plantations are set to play a key role in the greenhouse gas issue through carbon trading. Plantations act as greenhouse gas sinks absorbing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere as they grow. By increasing the area of plantation, additional carbon dioxide is removed from the atmosphere. The development of a greenhouse-based market has the potential to increase returns from plantations, and to make them both more attractive to investors and an even more competitive alternative land use. This promises to provide further impetus to the development of long rotation hardwood plantations in New South Wales. Companies or organisations that produce greenhouse gases will be able to buy the rights to products and activities that absorb or reduce carbon to offset their emissions, such as planted forests. The New South Wales Government has been leading the Commonwealth and other States and Territories in implementing programs to reduce greenhouse gases.

On 4 June 1998 the Premier announced an Australian first: trading of carbon credits between the forestry and energy sectors. This initiative further demonstrates the leadership of New South Wales in greenhouse issues. The trading arrangements are based on registering the carbon being taken up in the young plantations as an offset against the carbon emitted by coal-fired electricity plants operated by Pacific Power and Delta Electricity. Delta Electricity will provide 41 hectares of land for State Forests to grow plantations in exchange for the future rights to carbon credits. Pacific Power is paying State Forests for the rights to carbon sequestered into a 1,000 hectare plantation area. The Premier announced that Pacific Power had taken up its option to rollover the carbon storage deal for a 10-year period.

These trades have been independently accredited and that certification means that the carbon credit is based on due diligence in estimating carbon content of trees. Certificates were then registered by Bankers Trust and issued. This means that these carbon rights can be transferred or resold. Trading in carbon credits is in its infancy, but the Government is clearly poised to take advantage of new opportunities. Australia's first such carbon trade is being recognised by Sydney Futures Exchange chief executive and chairman of the Federal Government’s Regional Financial Centre Taskforce,
Page 8
Leslie Hosking, who said:

These arrangements show great initiative and demonstrate the skills and expertise present in Australia to introduce these innovative instruments at such an early stage in the evolution of this market.

Mr Hosking also said:

I congratulate the NSW Government for drawing together the parties to such an agreement.

The carbon trades and those in the pipeline, together with the Government’s commitment to the hardwood plantation program, as announced in the budget, mean more activity in New South Wales plantations. The international community is now negotiating the rules for trading in carbon credits, and I believe carbon farming may emerge as a new commodity business in Australia. State Forests is currently examining the development of suitable investment vehicles to take advantage of this new marketing opportunity for hardwood and softwood plantations. Employment benefits to rural New South Wales from the expansion of plantations will be tangible. So too will the benefits associated with the emergence of a new service and financial sector that ideally positions Sydney -

[Time expired.]

The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: I ask a supplementary question to enable you to complete your answer if you have further information.

Mr YEADON: The employment benefits to rural New South Wales from the expansion of plantations will be tangible. So too will be the benefits associated with the emergence of a new service and financial sector that ideally positions Sydney to be the Asia-Pacific centre for these trades. This new initiative is good news for jobs and for the environment, good for farmers and good for the financial and services sectors. Indeed, it is good for everybody.

The Hon. CARMEL TEBBUTT: Minister, my question refers to page 515 of Budget Paper No. 4, Volume 2, which shows that as an outcome of the forestry policy and reforms program timber businesses will be assisted to invest in value adding and employment creation initiatives. What is the Government doing to encourage investment in the New South Wales forest industry?

Mr YEADON: The Government has implemented ground-breaking initiatives that will ensure that the State’s native forests are protected adequately for future generations. At the same time the Government has encouraged the development of a sustainable, economically viable and economically sound forest industry, generating long-term jobs and valuable income for New South Wales, particularly for rural communities. To facilitate the transition of the native hardwood industry from a reliance on predominantly old-growth to regrowth and plantation forests, the Government, in conjunction with the Commonwealth, established the $120 million forestry industry structural adjustment package, FISAP.

FISAP has now been operating for over two years and offers a wide range of assistance for native forest businesses, including generous financial assistance to support investment in new value adding and further processing technologies. To date more than $6.2 million of FISAP funding has been approved under the industry development assistance component of the package. This funding has assisted 24 companies to generate over $24 million of new investment in the State’s native hardwood industry and has led to the creation of 133 direct new jobs. A major foundation of this new investment is the tradable term agreements granted to industry by this Government. The term agreements provide five-year resource security to native hardwood businesses which had relied previously only on annual quota licences.

Holders of a term agreement will be able to extend the term for a further five years, subject to meeting certain value adding criteria which are currently being developed by the New South Wales Forest Advisory Council. This level of resource security will provide the incentive for the forest industry to invest and achieve a strong return. To be eligible for industry development assistance a firm must be a new or existing business in the native forest industry, and have been adversely impacted on by the implementation of Government forest policy or be in partnership with a business that has been so affected. The Government is currently considering changes to these guidelines following a comprehensive operational review of the program.

Assistance for industry development initiatives is available in various forms including help with interest rate subsidies, development grants, consultancy subsidies, local government charges, taxation expenses, start-up costs, and training and recruitment costs. Any changes made to the guidelines will be designed to finetune and improve the program. Following the review and revision of guidelines, it is expected that there will be a significant rise in industry development assistance applications and funding in the second half of 1998. Among the major projects supported by IDA funding to date is a $4 million upgrade of the J. Notaras and Sons kiln drying and dressing operation at South Grafton. This investment will result in a significant increase in the range and volume of that
Page 9
company’s value-added product output and the expansion of its Asian and United States export marketing activities.

It will also result in the creation of approximately 24 new full-time jobs at the plant over the next three years. Industry development assistance funding of $1 million was provided for this project. Another $1 million has been allocated towards a $6 million investment at Hurford’s Building Supplies of Lismore, recently opened by the Premier. That project will involve the establishment of a new stand-alone processing centre that will draw sawn materials from the existing Hurford’s mill. The centre will specialise in the manufacture of flooring, mouldings, architraves, furniture components and other decorative products which showcase the unique aesthetic values of our native hardwood timber species. The new plant is currently operating and will result in the creation of 19 new direct jobs.

[Time expired.]

The Hon. CARMEL TEBBUTT: I ask a supplementary question. Would the Minister like to complete his comments?

Mr YEADON: Approximately 18 new jobs will also be created at Newells Creek Sawmilling Company at Bulahdelah as a result of a $4.5 million expansion program, funded to the tune of $1.1 million by FISAP. The Dorney family, who have been involved in the local logging and sawmilling industry for many years, have already rolled up their sleeves and begun the earthworks for the project, which includes a major new value adding centre attached to the existing Newells Creek mill. On a smaller, but no less important, scale IDA funds of $260,000 have been approved for W. J. and J. H. Machin towards a $910,000 upgrading of its sawmilling and kiln-drying operation at Wingham.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: An excellent mill.

Mr YEADON: It is an excellent mill.

The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: Are the owners of that firm related to Wendy Machin?

Mr YEADON: Yes. Wendy’s father is the owner of that mill. I had the pleasurable task of travelling to Wingham to open that mill, in the company of a number of local National Party members, and it was an excellent day. It was a day on which politics were put aside and the mill owner heaped extraordinary praise on the Government for its far-reaching and visionary forestry program. The upgrading will result in a doubling of that company’s kiln drying capacity, improved machining capacity and finish quality, and the creation of four new jobs. Industry development assistance to companies in the forest sector will continue to stimulate investment and encourage the industry to enhance its value adding performance. This support from the Government is helping the industry to reach its potential and at the same time is providing economic benefits to the rural community.

The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: I refer again to the State Forest annual report, and particularly to the Government’s forestry reform package. Will you provide the Committee with details of the progress on the forestry reforms?

Mr YEADON: The Government is making the transition of the hardwood timber industry from a resource based heavily on old-growth and mature forests to a resource based on regrowth forests and plantations. A value adding timber industry is emerging. We are undertaking comprehensive regional assessments of forest values. One assessment for the Eden region is almost complete, and others for coastal and tablelands regions are well advanced. The Government has provided improved certainty for the native timber industry. Eligible businesses have taken advantage of the New South Wales Government’s offer of five-year tradable term agreements to former holders of annual timber licences for quota sawlogs, thus providing certainty within the hardwood timber industry.

Holders of such agreements will be able to renew those term agreements for a further five years, subject to meeting value adding criteria. This measure is already encouraging new investment and promoting new, sustainable regional jobs. The Government has introduced operational improvements, environmental reporting and stronger conservation prescriptions to New South Wales forestry. Training in and compliance with soil and water conservation issues within harvesting operations undertaken by State Forests has been greatly strengthened. We have published a range of codes of practice and operational manuals governing such topics as timber harvesting, access road construction and maintenance, plantation establishment, worker safety and other industrial activities in New South Wales forests.

I might add that the Government also introduced codes of practice and accreditation processes under occupational health and safety guidelines for sawmill operations. We have provided an unprecedented level of support for the restructuring of the New South Wales timber industry. We established the $120 million forestry
Page 10
industry structural adjustment package, in conjunction with the Commonwealth, to facilitate restructuring of the timber industry along ecologically sustainable lines. To date more than $20 million from FISAP has gone directly to workers and businesses, including almost $10 million to assist over 500 workers, and $13 million to assist businesses leaving the industry.

In addition, more than $6 million has been approved for industry development assistance which is generating investment of $24 million and creating 130 new jobs. The Government and its agencies have been working very hard to encourage new investment and regional jobs in the timber and timber processing industries. A new softwood processing plant was opened earlier this year at Holbrook in southern New South Wales and progress is being made in relation to Visy Industries’ proposal to develop a new pulp and paper mill near Tumut. That Holbrook operation was an outstanding achievement by the proponents, by the State Government and by the local council. I am looking forward to a positive announcement on Visy in the near future.

CHAIR: It is time for crossbench questions. What is the approximate value per hectare of native forest plantations for carbon emission trading credits? Exactly how is this estimated and, further, what happens to carbon credits when forests are logged?

Mr YEADON: To take the second part of the question first, when a plantation is harvested an amount of the carbon will be given off in that harvesting process, but it is a small amount in relation to carbon stored through photosynthesis and other processes by a tree over its life cycle, whatever that may be, 20 to 30 years. From the point of harvesting, the carbon emissions given off depend on the end use of the timber. If it is used in paper production, there would be large carbon emission in that process, not only given off from the timber itself but given off in the process and the way the process is conducted. Alternatively, if the resource became structural timber for building purposes, the carbon stored within that timber would remain in the timber and would therefore be stored in the house or product constructed from the material.

In each of those processes, from harvesting through to whatever purpose the product is put to, there are formulae and arithmetical calculations that can be undertaken that give a more accurate outline or very accurate estimate of the amount of carbon that is given off and emitted back into the atmosphere. To relate that to carbon trading, those factors are taken into account as carbon is traded. So, whilst the plantation itself is growing, you can calculate how much carbon is being stored per hectare, and the credits created for that. At harvest, the harvesting process is taken into account and then the end use of the product is assessed, calculated and factored into carbon trading.

CHAIR: Have you any idea of the dollar value per hectare?

Mr YEADON: To go back to value per hectare, to my understanding it depends on the species, but you can take an average of, say, 10 tonnes per hectare. In the carbon credit arrangements that have been entered into by people like Pacific Power and Delta Electricity, for commercial confidentiality reasons the actual money amounts have not been disclosed, but I can indicate to you what may be used as a guide to the financial return for carbon credit trading. On the New York derivatives exchange at the present time, carbon credits are trading at about US$11.50 per tonne. So, if you factor that amount into your hectarage you can work out on a sliding scale what sort of return might be there. But the best indicator at the present time is the New York derivatives market.

CHAIR: Will the $120 million industry restructuring package be enough or will more funds be needed to assist the industry when the CAR reserve system is complete?

Mr YEADON: At this stage it appears that we will have ample money to take the process through to its conclusion. I did read out the figures showing money expended so far, and that is nowhere near half of the allocated amount. On that basis, our best endeavours indicate we will have adequate money, if not more than enough, to take the program through to its completion.

CHAIR: Has any thought been given by State Forests to paulownia plantations?

Mr YEADON: Very little. I am informed by State Forests that it is largely undertaken as a pure private sector commercial activity.

CHAIR: For the last financial year, for the whole of New South Wales, what was the total value of public subsidies to the public and native forest timber industry from the State Forests operations, including the cost of forest management planning, site supervision, prelogging surveys, road construction and maintenance, harvesting, compliance monitoring, and implementing post-operation mitigation measures and environmental impact assessments?

Page 11
Mr YEADON: Nil, Mr Chairman. In fact, a profit was returned this year from hardwood, and I understand from next year they will be reported separately and that will be made quite clear.

CHAIR: In the past 12 months what expenditures have been committed to obtaining in-house legal advice for how many matters; and legal advice from outside New South Wales State Forests for how many matters?

Mr YEADON: I will have to take that question on notice, Mr Chairman, and give you a written response at the first available opportunity.

CHAIR: For the past 12 months what expenditures in staff and/or program activities have been committed to public relations, including media releases and comments to media, production of publications such as newsletters, bulletins and the bush telegraph, staff training, retraining, in-service courses, workshops and/or professional development?

Mr YEADON: That is quite an extensive list and I do not have those figures at my disposal. So, again, I will have to take that question on notice.

CHAIR: What amount of the forest industry restructural adjustment package is to be given directly to workers on their exit from the native forest timber industry? How many workers will receive it, and what allocation of FISAP will be given to the timber industry and/or State Forests for marketing development? What is the breakdown to the nearest thousand dollars of the FISAP allocation, for what was it allocated, and to whom?

Mr YEADON: I am not sure if I can answer your question directly, in the sense that the $120 million forestry industry structural adjustment package comprised $60 million contributed by the State Government and $60 million contributed by the Federal Government. The contribution by those two governments saw, I suppose, somewhat of a division over the expenditure of their respective contributions. That was that the $60 million put forward by the State Government would be oriented to worker assistance and the $60 million contributed by the Federal Government would deal with the industry side of the equation, if you like, being industry development assistance, business exit assistance, and so forth.

How much precisely will be spent on workers and even the number of workers affected will not be known until the program has been taken through to its conclusion. However, as I indicated earlier under worker assistance, to date almost $11 million has been spent on more than 500 displaced workers for retraining, relocation, redeployment and special redundancy payments. Over $11 million in exit assistance has been allocated to assist businesses that have decided to leave the forest industry, under the Federal Government’s component, and 24 industry development initiatives with more than $6.2 million of FISAP funds have been allocated to businesses across major regions of the State. Again, that is on the Federal Government’s side of the equation.

Those particular 24 industry development initiatives have supported total investments of $24 million in the industry and generation of 133 new jobs. That is the most accurate data I can give you in relation to worker assistance. What that will be over the life of the program I cannot indicate to you at this stage, because the program has not concluded and we have no definitive effect on what the ultimate level of assistance will be.

CHAIR: What initiatives are included in this year’s budget to move the native forest logging industry closer to a full user-pays policy?

Mr YEADON: I believe a user-pays policy is already in force. I indicated earlier that there were no subsidies in the hardwood sector in the last financial year and, therefore, those who are taking delivery of wood are paying for it.

CHAIR: When the five plus five year tradeable term agreements were granted, was it anticipated that any of the interim deferred forest areas that are currently protected would be included under the agreements? If so, how many of the 816,000 hectares being investigated for the CRA system will be logged?

Mr YEADON: When the Government made its interim decision in September 1996 it put aside a range of areas for examination as they may potentially - and I emphasise potentially - be required for a reserve system following comprehensive regional assessments. All those areas that had been identified in the interim assessment as having some conservation value that would be potentially required were indeed set aside. The Government knew it had no precise time line in relation to the outcome of CRAs because the wider community, through stakeholder representatives, was being invited to take part in the process and work with the Government on comprehensive regional assessments for it. It was not possible for the State Government to have precise time lines because, under the terms of the National Forest Policy Statement, the Federal Government will also be an integral player in that process.

Given that situation, in its September 1996 decision the Government came to the view that it
Page 12
needed to have the ability, where necessary - and I emphasise where necessary - to maintain the supply of timber under its term agreements to sawmillers, and that it would have the ability to enter into interim deferred forest areas pending the completion of CRAs. Since September 1996 we have entered into three interim deferred forest area compartments, which is a very low percentage of the overall interim deferred forest figures, and, I understand, is less than 1 per cent of the forest estate. How many we will be required to enter into before the conclusion of the last CRA - and there will be about five or six of them, depending on what areas are designated as comprehensive regional assessment areas across the State - is not known. I emphasise that the Government has set up community-based mechanisms to bring the community into the consultation and deliberation process in relation to necessary access into those interim deferred forest areas. That is being conducted on the north-east coast of New South Wales at present, under the Harvest Advisory Board.

CHAIR: Will these contracts take precedence over the CRA system?

Mr YEADON: I am not sure I know which contracts you are referring to.

CHAIR: If there are inadequate areas to achieve the CRA targets, will these 5 plus 5 agreements take precedence or eat into the CRA system?

Mr YEADON: I do not know that I am able to answer a question expressed in that way. As part of the National Forest Policy Statement and part of the State Government's own forest policy, the Government's approach is one of balance in that there is a need to look for, investigate, and establish necessary conservation, but, on the other side of the coin, to also take into account socioeconomic matters and to ensure that we do not leave rural communities economically devastated. The key criteria used to determine outcomes will be those two terms of scale - the need for proper and appropriate conservation and the need to protect socioeconomic values in rural communities.

[Time expired.]

[Short adjournment]

CHAIR: We will now deal with Port Management, program 52.1.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: Will the Minister justify the increased registration costs for larger vessels - up to 70 per cent I believe - despite the fact that many of these vessels are sailing boats and therefore pose little or no cost to the environment, unlike smaller vessels such as jet skis and small runabouts, which cause considerable noise and other pollution but which continue to be registered for a minimal fee?

Mr YEADON: On 27 February I announced a new fee structure that will boost volunteer marine rescue services in New South Wales. Additional marine and sewerage facilities will be constructed through the waterways asset development and management program - commonly referred to as WADAMP - and greater fairness will be introduced in boat registration. I place particular emphasis on sewerage facilities, pump-out facilities and the like. Regardless of what motor is on the back or what form of propulsion there is, those sorts of issues come into play - particularly on sailing boats of a larger type. The sliding scale of fees for boat registration was introduced to address the equity anomaly that meant that the owner of a four-metre runabout paid the same $50 registration fee as the owner of a 24-metre luxury cruiser. The new structure is similar to the sliding scale of vessel registration fees that operates in both Queensland and Western Australia. It is similar also to arrangements for motor vehicle registration fees, which have a sliding scale.

The Waterways Authority will utilise revenue raised from fee adjustments to provide a range of services to the broad-based boating community, including the allocation of $350,000 for marine rescue and emergency services, additional boating service officers - which have been actively sought by the boating community - and waterway infrastructure under the waterways asset development and management program. The authority will seek funding from other agencies and marine-related groups to support WADAMP and therefore will not necessarily solely fund any project. Projects will be prioritised in consultation with users, and funds will be allocated accordingly. In effect, revenue raised from the boating community will be returned to it through a range of services.

The new structures and fee adjustments will raise approximately an additional $2.57 million in a full year. Overall, the new fee structures will deliver a $2 million per year waterways asset development and management program for sewerage pump-outs and other boating facilities such as boat ramps and specialised navigational aids. The authority will consult widely on spending for the infrastructure program, mainly through local government, boating groups and key boating and marine organisations. There will be a new $350,000 volunteer emergency
Page 13
services package for marine rescue activities; six new boating service officers, mainly for country areas; extra off-shore patrols and improved service up to the three nautical mile limit along the coast; greater fairness for waterways clients broadly; and improved front counter and business processes for boaters.

In addition to the improvements made to amenities for the boating community, the new fee structure includes a 50 per cent registration concession to some 16,000 people in possession of a current pensioner concession card, approximately 10 per cent of the boating community. This represents a commitment by the New South Wales Government to meet the needs of boat-owning pensioners. In order to fulfil obligations to the community, additional resources are required from time to time. The authority has a total of 12,506 square kilometres of waterways within its jurisdiction, which has been patrolled by 44 boating service officers. The six new officers recently recruited will provide additional support for safety education and on-water patrol and compliance activity. This increased level of servicing has been sought by the boating community.

[Time expired.]

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: How much did the recent waterfront dispute cost the ports of New South Wales, both as a whole and individually? Did the Minister take any court action to ensure access to the ports? If not, why not? Did he obtain legal advice that the Patrick holding company, Lang Corporation, had acted in breach of its lease by restructuring its work force? What was the advice?

Mr YEADON: Of the three New South Wales port corporations the main impact was felt at Sydney ports, where the majority of container operations are undertaken. The disruption to shipping during the dispute obviously resulted in a reduction of Sydney Ports Corporation income. Sydney Ports Corporation derives income from a variety of charges, including a navigation services charge, a site occupation charge and wharfage. For the month of April corporation income from those charges was down by approximately $500,000. May figures are still to be finalised. However, the impact is expected to be considerably less than in April. During the dispute the P&O facilities at Sydney Harbour and at Port Botany were able to absorb much of the cargo destined for Patrick’s facilities, with the result that Sydney’s ports were able to operate at about 70 per cent capacity.

When vessels were unable to obtain a berth or were carrying perishable goods they were diverted interstate, with a resultant loss of revenue to the ports corporation. It is expected that the effect on the corporation’s dividend to Treasury will be minimal and will have a negligible effect on the ability of the State Government to fund its programs. In fact, it is expected that the Sydney Ports Corporation will pay Treasury an above-budget dividend of $14.609 million for 1997-98, rather than the budgeted $11.639 million, despite the effects of the dispute. The overall impact upon the other two main ports of Newcastle and Port Kembla was negligible. It should be remembered that the dispute was engineered by the Federal Government, with little thought or regard for the cost to producers and organisations such as the Sydney Ports Corporation. The aspect of the question that related to legal advice is covered by legal professional privilege, and I shall not elaborate on that.

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: I refer the Minister to the second part of my question, which asked him whether he took any court action to ensure access to the ports.

Mr YEADON: No.

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: Why did you not take legal action to ensure access to the ports?

Mr YEADON: Because that would have inflamed an ongoing dispute. It was not the role of the Minister for Ports or the ports corporations to engage in such action, and such action was not carried out anywhere else around the country where the dispute was unfolding.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: What measures are being undertaken by the Sydney Ports Corporation to improve the efficiency of its work force to maximise the value of the port to the people of New South Wales?

Mr YEADON: It is my understanding that, in approximate terms, the corporation’s work force has been downsized from about 240 to about 200 persons. Efficiencies have resulted from that work force reduction.

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: Could the Minister detail any and all asset sales within the ports portfolio, including a brief description of the asset, the expected sale price and the expected sale date?

Mr YEADON: Could the Hon. C. J. S. Lynn relate this to a line item in the budget papers?

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: I do not have a reference.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: Is the Minister saying that within the ports portfolio there are no
Page 14
asset sales planned for this financial year?

Mr YEADON: It would be of assistance if the honourable member could refer to an item in the budget papers.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: Surely the Minister knows whether there will be any asset sales within the portfolio. We could choose to get very tricky about this, or we could ask and answer straight questions.

Mr YEADON: Mr Chairman, with respect, some confusion arises from the fact that I have responsibility for a number of organisations that hold assets. If, as I presume, the question relates to the port corporations of Sydney, Newcastle and Port Kembla, I am not aware of those corporations moving to sell any significant asset in the coming financial year. I draw a distinction between those corporations and the Marine Ministerial Holding Corporation.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: What, if any, plans have been made for advertising within the ports portfolio between now and March next year?

Mr YEADON: Is the question in relation to any particular aspect of advertising, or advertising across the board?

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: Just in relation to the ports corporations.

Mr YEADON: The Sydney Ports Corporation operates on commercial lines, with ministerial oversight. Therefore, I have no information to hand on proposals it may have as a corporation for advertising during the next 12 months. That is the difficulty that I have in answering some of these questions, in that honourable members are delving into matters for which I do not have direct responsibility. I am more than happy to take general questions, but when members ask these types of questions it would be beneficial if I could be provided with a page number and line item. Some of these matters, particularly day-to-day operational issues and expenditure, relating to ports corporations, are not matters in respect of which I am answerable. They are corporations.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: I refer the Minister to page 514 of Volume 2 of Budget Paper No. 3, line item "Other operating expenses". Is any advertising planned under that item?

Mr YEADON: No advertising is planned for that line item. That line item relates to the Marine Ministerial Holding Corporation, rather than to the Sydney, Port Kembla or Newcastle ports corporations. That is why line item nomination is necessary, to clarify questions.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: So the answer is no?

Mr YEADON: The answer is no.

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: Have any consultants been employed within the ports portfolio? If so, what was the cost of their employment, what was the length of their consultancy, and what was the nature of their role? I would appreciate details of any consultants employed within the ports portfolio, including their names, experience, and any known political affiliations.

Mr YEADON: We currently have no consultants employed through the ministry for forests and marine administration. Was the honourable member seeking information about consultants currently employed, or consultants employed throughout the past financial year?

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: Have any consultants been employed in the last financial year?

Mr YEADON: Have we hired consultants at any time in the past financial year?

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: Yes.

Page 15

Mr YEADON: I cannot be sure. I will take the question on notice and report back to the honourable member.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: What was the total wages bill for staff within the ports portfolio, including the Waterways Authority, the Marine Ministerial Holding Corporation, and the Sydney, Newcastle and Port Kembla ports corporations?

Mr YEADON: Firstly, the Marine Ministerial Holding Corporation has no staff, so there is no cost against that. For 1997-98 there is a staff cost of $4.11 million for the ministry for forests and marine administration, which is my own ministerial office and the administration office. That is estimated to be $4.3 million for 1998-99. I repeat, the Marine Ministerial Holding Corporation has no employees. For the Waterways Authority, for 1998-99 the allocation is $14.52 million for wages and salaries.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: What about the ports corporations?

Mr YEADON: I do not have figures on that. As I say, being corporations, they are not within the budget papers. This is not question time; these are the budget estimates.

CHAIR: Any questions are admissible.

Mr YEADON: I might indicate that the opportunity was available for honourable members to request that representatives of the ports corporations be present today to answer questions. Honourable members did not avail themselves of that opportunity, and therefore there is no scope at this hearing for honourable members to ask questions related to the detailed or day-to-day operations of the ports corporations.

CHAIR: Those questions may be placed on notice.

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: I refer to page 113 of Budget Paper No. 4. Why has a total of only $2.4 million been allocated to the Walsh Bay wharves redevelopment project at Millers Point considering the estimated total cost of the project is ten times that amount at $19.6 million, with an expected completion date of 2001? Is this an indication that the Minister expects the next government to fund his initiatives?

Mr YEADON: The reference given by the honourable member bears no relationship to the Walsh Bay development.

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: I will come back to that question.

Page 16

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: What provisions have been made in the budget to meet the Waterways Authority’s commitment to the Sydney 2000 Olympics, including harbour command and control, specific crowd control, and the challenges of super yachts and other visiting vessels?

CHAIR: That question should be put on notice.

[Time expired.]

The Hon. CARMEL TEBBUTT: I refer the Minister to page 112 of Budget Paper No. 4, which shows that the Newcastle Port Corporation proposes to spend $2.6 million - including $530,000 in 1998-99 - extending the basin terminal at Carrington. Can the Minister identify the proposed uses of the basin terminal extension?

Mr YEADON: The proposed extension of the eastern basin No. 2 wharf will enable the simultaneous accommodation of two large general cargo ships. Currently more than one large ship cannot be accommodated without restricting cargo handling operations. The competitiveness of stevedoring operations at the berth is constrained by its ability to handle only one large ship, and can result in lost business. It is estimated that the effective berth throughput will increase by about 15 per cent with the proposed extension. Whilst the additional throughput is dependent upon commodity type and mix of cargoes, it is estimated that the project will contribute about 75,000 tonnes per annum of additional port trade. The main beneficiaries of the project will be larger general cargo ship operators. The anticipated cargoes handled across the wharf could include aluminium, cotton containers, timber and forestry products.

The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: I am interested in obtaining a great deal more information on Newcastle. Will the Minister tell us the most significant of the $1.614 million worth of minor miscellaneous works which are foreseen for the port of Newcastle in 1998-99, how they will benefit the port and why they are necessary?

Mr YEADON: Certainly. A significant part of the budget provision for minor miscellaneous works is $840,000 for the upgrading of the corporation’s information technology systems. These works include the acquisition of hardware to enhance current port communication capabilities, an overhaul of the corporation’s financial system to provide year 2000 compliance and greater system integration, and replacement of obsolete equipment. The proposed investment in information technology infrastructure will enable the corporation to commercially benefit from the continuing deregulation of the telecommunications industry. Operational savings can be achieved through the streamlining of data management, and improved levels of electronic data transfer to the corporation’s customers and the business community.

The rapid development of IT systems and electronic trade have progressively made the corporation’s IT systems obsolete. Obsolescence of the systems will reduce the corporation’s competitiveness. The inability to achieve systems integration and the problems associated with the reliability and support ability of current hardware and software will increase business risk. The remainder of the minor miscellaneous works includes asset renewal such as motor vehicles and plant and machinery. The minor works also include building modifications and site works such as landscaping and car parking facilities.

The Hon. CARMEL TEBBUTT: I note that an upgrading project will commence in 1998-99 on the interterminal access road at Port Botany. Will the Minister indicate the benefits that this project will have in increasing port efficiency at the container terminal?

Mr YEADON: The interterminal access road is currently a narrow road which runs between the Patrick and Container Terminals Australia Limited terminals at Port Botany and then past the main container parks. The overall effect of upgrading the road will be to improve the operational efficiency of the terminal space by facilitating rapid removal of containers to other locations for unpacking or unloading. The specific benefits that will accrue from an upgrading of the road are a reduction in traffic flow on the other port roads and the more rapid removal of containers from the terminal to container parks, thus relieving congestion at the terminal gates. That, in turn, will reduce the need for trucks to queue to gain entry. The containers at the terminal will be stacked in blocks and moved in one operation by dedicated trucks resulting in more efficient handling and superior truck utilisation. The improvements to the road have been made necessary by a growth in trade through the ports. For the 10 months to the end of April container trade through the port of Sydney, most of which occurs at Botany, was 10 per cent higher than for the same period last year.

The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: I refer to page 113 of Budget Paper No. 4, Sydney Ports Corporation. I note that about $1 million will be spent at various locations for the Sydney 2000 Olympics wharf services upgrade, including
Page 17
$400,000 during 1998-99. Is that expenditure additional to the allocations contained in the Olympic Co-ordination Authority’s state of play financial report? If so, what will be provided and where are the various locations?

Mr YEADON: The Sydney Ports Corporation Olympics related responsibilities are primarily concerned with the accommodation of cruise ships operating as floating hotels. At present it is envisaged that 10 berths in Sydney Harbour will be needed for such ships. In addition to the two passenger ship terminals, eight cargo ships and miniberths will be used as floating hotel locations. Works required to prepare the various sites fall into two categories: firstly, projects that will result in permanent enhancements at the berths concerned and, secondly, works of a temporary nature. Temporary work such as the erection of security barricades, provision of special signage and assembly job equipment for sewage collection are to be funded from the total Government Olympic budget as these works will not provide any ongoing benefit to port users. An allocation of $4.4 million has been made in regard to these facilities. The $1 million provided in the Sydney Port Corporation’s capital program at page 113 of Budget Paper No. 4 will be spent on permanent enhancements which, as well as benefiting floating hotels, will improve the quality of the berths concerned for normal users before and after the Games.

The relevant works are, therefore, additional to those referred to in the Olympic Co-ordination Authority’s state of play financial report. A major proportion of the amount in question is required for upgrading the capacity of freshwater piping at berths owned by the Sydney Ports Corporation at Darling Harbour, White Bay and Glebe Island. Other items include construction of additional pits for collection of ships’ sewage, the installation of additional mooring bollards, telephone lines and wharf lighting fixtures and renewal of various wharf finishings such as kerb logs, fenders and safety equipment. Minor landscaping treatment will also be undertaken. The program of upgrades has commenced and will continue until June 2000.

The Hon. CARMEL TEBBUTT: I refer again to Budget Paper No. 4, page 144. The Glebe Island redevelopment project is the largest asset acquisition item contained in this year’s Sydney Ports Corporation program with $8.7 million allocated for 1998-99. Will the Minister indicate the areas of Glebe Island that have been redeveloped and, given the significant amount, why that level of expenditure is necessary?

Mr YEADON: Five million dollars will be used to rationalise the current road and rail infrastructure serving Glebe Island and White Bay following the acquisition in the 1997-98 financial year of a piece of land owned by the State Rail Authority. With the anticipated change of use of Darling Harbour wharves for other commercial uses during the next 20 years, more efficient use will be required of Glebe Island and White Bay berths to meet the growth needs of the city and the region. The land purchased from the SRA will be used to provide a new road access from the port under Victoria Road and directly on to city west link, the main arterial road serving the area.

That will take traffic away from residential areas in Balmain and a number of congested intersections. Disused rail track will be removed while rail access more suited to the needs of port leases will be provided. Sydney Ports Corporation will also be improving other internal port roads to facilitate the smooth flow of traffic between wharves and from the wharves to the main arterial road. Part of the rationalisation of Glebe Island to bring it to greater commercial use will be the removal of the old disused silos which form a square block to the east of a newer row of silos running at a 45 degree angle from Glebe Island bridge. The concrete will be recycled on site and the material generated will be used to level Glebe Island in readiness for future development. An amount of $2.9 million has been allocated for the silo demolition and associated works, and $800,000 will be spent on strengthening White Bay No. 1 wharf and preparing the area for future productive use.

The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: Budget Paper No. 2, page 4-160 states that one of the strategic priorities of the Ministry for Forests and Marine Administration is to achieve high levels of marine safety and environmental protection in ports and waterways through an effective regulatory and policy framework and the co-ordination of State responses to marine incidents. Will you explain how budget funds allocated to the MFMA will be used towards this priority?

Mr YEADON: An amount of $615,000 has been allocated towards maintaining high levels of marine safety and environmental protection in New South Wales ports and waterways. These funds will be used for: firstly, activities such as monitoring of port safety operating licences of the three port corporations; secondly, port safety audits; thirdly, oil spill emergency exercises; and, fourthly, preparation of oil spill contingency plans. Funds have been allocated on the basis of measurable targets that demonstrate the high priority placed by the Government on the safety of persons and ships using the waterways. The actual targets relate to the monitoring of the port safety operating licences of the three port corporations.

Page 18

Each port corporation has an external quality assurance auditor from an accredited organisation who checks the maintenance of marine safety elements prescribed by its respective port safety operating licence. These cover: first, the maintenance of safe depths in shipping channels; second, the monitoring of the handling of dangerous goods in ports; third, the maintenance of appropriate navigation aids such as buoys and beacons; fourth, the provision of trained pilots for ships entering and leaving the ports; and, fifth, the maintenance of an efficient port communications system. In relation to marine environmental protection the port corporations are required to have trained personnel and equipment to respond to oil spills from boats and ships. To be in a position to do so the port corporations conduct oil spill emergency exercises and maintain a set of oil spill contingency plans for the entire coast of New South Wales.

The Hon. CARMEL TEBBUTT: I refer to Budget Paper No. 4. A number of projects relating to Circular Quay are listed on pages 62 and 63, the largest of which are the new JetCat landing at wharf No. 3 and the relocation of retail concessions from the wharves. Will the Minister describe how these projects will enhance the efficiency of Circular Quay as a transport and pedestrian hub?

Mr YEADON: The provision of a new JetCat landing at wharf No. 3 will enable all Manly services to operate from one jetty, reducing confusion for the travelling public and for tourists. The provision of this facility will also allow greater flexibility in the operation of ferries from Circular Quay. The retail concessions on both sides of the wharves restrict the free flow of pedestrians to the ferry pontoons. Under the new proposal the concessions will be removed and new smaller concessions introduced on only one side of each wharf. In addition the concessions are 10 years old and in need of major renovation. To maintain a level of retailing in the Quay area new concessions will be built under the railway line at both the eastern and western ends. Those new buildings will replace administrative offices for Sydney Ferries that are currently located on those wharves.

The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: I refer to Budget Paper No. 4, page 63, line item "Port Kembla Boat Harbour", which has an allocation of $735,000 for 1998-99. Will you describe the benefits that will flow from this work?

Mr YEADON: Construction of the Port Kembla Boat Harbour commenced in May 1998 and when completed in October this year will result in a number of benefits to the Illawarra region. For many years the local community has sought improved recreational facilities in the Port Kembla region, particularly as existing boat ramps are either not wide enough, located in the commercial port area, or exposed to ocean waves, making use of the facilities dangerous, particularly in heavy seas. The Government has taken action to rectify the situation by allocating funds to improve the existing boat harbour located in the outer harbour of Port Kembla.

A new permanent three-lane boat ramp is to be constructed. Also included as part of the project will be the provision of protective breakwaters, a new landing jetty, the removal of unsafe berthing structures for a number of vessels and subsequent provisions of new structures, as well as space for parking and a boat and trailer wash-down area. As a result, the boat harbour will provide access to and from the water for local fishing, powerboats and sailboats, in complete safety. The project will also provide the potential to attract tourism.

CHAIR: In reference to Budget Paper No. 3, page 514, subprogram 52.1.1 Port Management, the line item "Operating statement" shows that retained revenue from the port safety operating licence is expected to decrease from $106,000 in 1997-98 to $12,000 in 1998-99. Will you explain that?

Mr YEADON: The amount represents the port safety operating licence that is paid by port corporations to the Office of Marine Administration. The port corporation is required to exercise port safety functions that include installation and maintenance of navigation aids, maintenance of safe shipping channels, pilotage services and hydrographic services.

CHAIR: What progress is being made towards developing the new deep-water port at Eden? How much will it cost? What is the expected annual revenue?

Page 19
Mr YEADON: The Government recognises the need to revitalise the Eden region through the encouragement of major industrial initiatives and the creation of jobs. To further these aims the Government has undertaken discussions with the Itochu Corporation concerning the construction of an oriented strand board plant at Bombala. To assist with the export of this product from the region a new wharf at Eden has been recommended. The favoured site for the new berth is at Munganno Point on the southern shore of Twofold Bay adjacent to the existing Harris Daishowa facility. The Government has agreed to provide $5 million towards the wharf project and the Commonwealth Government has agreed to provide a further $3 million if Itochu proceeds with the oriented strand plant at Bombala. If the project at Bombala does not proceed, the allocation of any funds for the wharf would need to be reconsidered by the Government. The new wharf will be designed to handle other products and be capable of upgrading in the future should this be required. The local community is very supportive of the proposal to develop the new wharf.

I understand that the Commonwealth Government is currently examining construction of an east coast armaments facility in Eden as an alternative to Point Wilson in Victoria. A public hearing of the Standing Committee on Public Works took evidence at Eden on 27 April this year. If built, the wharf could also be used for commercial shipping. A number of initiatives are being considered at present. I have no further information on the Commonwealth Government’s investigation of Eden as a possible armaments facility. However, I emphasis that if the Federal Government moves forward with an armaments facility at Eden, any infrastructure could be used for commercial purposes, and that would be good for Eden and Twofold Bay. Notwithstanding that, the New South Wales Government has committed $5 million to a wharf facility at Twofold Bay, but there must be an identified commercial project alongside that. At present the most probable venture along those lines would be an Itoshu proposal at Bombala, but the Government needs to be assured that that proposal will go ahead before it commits the $5 million to establishing the wharf at Twofold Bay.

CHAIR: How many oil spills were there last year in New South Wales waterways? Were the costs involved in cleaning up those spills recovered from those responsible for the spills?

Mr YEADON: There are perhaps dozens of very minor oil spills within New South Wales waterways and along the coast each year. Those spills are cleaned up by the relevant authorities at government expense. The costs are not recovered from the people who spill the oil unless the spillage is significant. However, I emphasis that the spills are very minor and are simply cleaned up. There was a major land-sourced oil spill into Woolloomooloo Bay on 25 February this year. At approximately 4.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 26 February, a heavy piece of machinery dropped a large piece of timber and fractured a disused pipeline beneath the Woolloomooloo Finger Wharf, resulting in the spillage of oil into Woolloomooloo Bay. The Sydney Ports Corporation immediately implemented a full emergency response, and within an hour the area of the spill was contained by floating booms. Using state of the art recovery equipment, serious environmental damage to Sydney Harbour from the oil spill was averted by quick action on the part of Sydney Ports Corporation.

Although the original estimate of about six tonnes of oil spilled was correct at the time, more oil continued to leak from several sections of broken pipeline. Despite a final volume of 60 to 70 tonnes of oil spilled, the containment booms substantially limited the area affected. The developers, the Wharf at Woolloomooloo Pty Ltd, are currently undertaking a complex operation to secure, empty and then remove the remaining pipe structure from beneath the wharf. The floating booms will be left in place for the duration of this operation. The Environment Protection Authority was briefed throughout the clean-up and is currently investigating the cause of the incident with a view to prosecution of any offending party. I was impressed and encouraged by the competency displayed by the Sydney Ports Corporation clean-up teams.

CHAIR: What is being done to minimise the discharge of harmful marine organisms such as dinoflagellates from visiting ships?

Mr YEADON: The Government places a high emphasis on meeting its environmental responsibility in maritime areas. Ecological sustainability is a critical consideration in all Waterways Authority dealings. Priority environmental areas currently being progressed by the authority include sewage pollution from vessels, noise from vessels and the impact of moorings on seagrass beds. In September last year my predecessor, directed the Waterways Authority to establish an interagency working group to develop a statewide policy on sewage pollution from vessels. This move was prompted by the public health issues arising from the consumption of oysters from the Tweed River and an outbreak in February in 1997 of hepatitis A in people who had consumed oysters from Wallis Lake.

The working group comprises representatives from the Waterways Authority, the Environment Protection Authority, the Health Department, the
Page 20
Department of Land and Water Conservation, the Department of Local Government, the National Parks and Wildlife Service, New South Wales Fisheries and the Ministry for Forests and Marine Administration. Whilst not considered a major source of pollution, sewage from vessels has an impact on water quality. The recommendations I have received from that working group are aimed at providing an equitable solution which has as its primary focus public and environmental health considerations that can be applied to all waterways in New South Wales.

The working group’s report constitutes a major step forward in protecting the marine environment from the adverse effects of boating activities. It is my intention to release the working group’s report for public comment over the next couple of months, after which time an implementation plan will be developed to introduce the various strategies contained in the report. There is also a national ballast task force looking at the issue of the discharge of ballast water around Australia. Ballast water carries organisms such as dinoflagellates, which are being released into local waters. I look forward to receiving the recommendations of the task force and to working with the Federal Government and other State governments to implement a regime that will protect Australian waters from such contamination.

CHAIR: What is being done specifically to minimise acid sulfate soil run-off?

Mr YEADON: It is probably more appropriate for that question to be directed to the Minister for Land and Water Conservation because acid sulfate soil run-off is a land-based issue in that acid sulfate originates on land and it is there that it needs to be dealt with. As a result of my former role as Minister for Land and Water Conservation I am aware that the Department of Land and Water Conservation is dealing with acid sulfate soil run-offs particularly along coastal stretches. When I was in charge of the land and water conservation portfolio sulfate soil mapping was taking place on the north coast to identify areas for local councils, the community, farmers and other interested players. That meant that as they carried out their day-to-day activities along coastal stretches they could identify acid sulfate soils and ensure that they put in place appropriate mechanisms and protections to ensure that there was no acid sulfate leaching and exposure.

CHAIR: What is the Government’s policy on the use of tributyl tin for cleaning organisms off the bottoms of vessels?

Mr YEADON: That question is more for the Environment Protection Authority and the shipping industry, which applies such a product to all vessels. The EPA would ensure that that work was carried out in accordance with the framework of its regulations. It is not a matter for the ministries of forestry or marine administration.

CHAIR: We will now move to the portfolio of Information and Technology which is subprogram 4.1.9.

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: Minister, I refer to Budget Paper No. 4. What is the total expenditure for new information technology in the public sector this budget year compared to ongoing projects from previous years?

Mr YEADON: That is an extremely broad-ranging question as it asks for the total expenditure for information technology across government.

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: Yes.

Mr YEADON: The Office of Information Technology is certainly a strategic co-ordinating and facilitating office, but it is not inside each department dealing with IT expenditure. At best that question would have to be taken on notice and given to each Minister who would have to respond in respect of expenditure occurring in his or her respective portfolio. However, surveys within government show a requirement of approximately $600 million, but that is not a hard and fast figure. Although it is not presented as a separate budget statement throughout the budget papers, particularly in Budget Paper No. 4, the State asset acquisition program incurs a considerable amount of expenditure on information technology projects. From my estimates, in excess of $300 million of capital funds has been allocated to either new projects or work in progress within the general government sector and the private trading enterprise sector.

These allocations fall across all portfolios and cover agencies diverse in size and structure. This demonstrates the commitment by this Government to ensure that all agencies have access to the most appropriate information technology infrastructure to assist them to meet their business objectives and to provide services to the community. More than $170 million has been allocated to the general government sector, with half this amount going towards the health, education and police portfolios. Funding will provide systems and infrastructure to address agency year 2000 problems and deliver new and innovative business applications. The Office of Information Technology and the Government Management Information Board reviewed all significant funding bids provided by health, education and police
Page 21
agencies as part of a budget screening process.

The review covers most general government sector agencies. It will ensure adequate justification for funding proposals and that projects align with whole-of-government directions enunciated in the Government’s blueprint strategy and the connect.nsw Internet strategy. This provides a strong confidence that the Government’s outlay for information technology is for projects that will assist to achieve the Government’s information technology vision. The amount is in the vicinity of $300 million worth of capital funds and a total across-government amount of approximately $600 million to $620 million, which will be used to purchase such items as personal computers for small departments. The Office of Information Technology is not intricately involved in such purchases. It examines the larger strategic projects within government and its departments.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: Minister, what is the total allocation of funding required to rectify the millennium bug on a whole-of-government basis?

Mr YEADON: Through the Office of Information Technology this Government is assisting the New South Wales public sector to address the year 2000 problem through a range of strategies. People in New South Wales businesses expect reliable service from government and must have confidence that critical government functions and services will not be interrupted by the year 2000 problem. In recognising the potential severity of the year 2000 problem the Government has already introduced a number of initiatives to ensure agencies are protected as far as possible and to mitigate the effects of the problem across government. In June 1997 Cabinet approved phase one of a whole-of-government year 2000 strategy. As part of this strategy the Office of Information Technology conducted an intensive information and awareness campaign across the public sector, produced and disseminated a year 2000 business risk analysis methodology, which is now being used by other governments and some large private sector organisations, and presented period panel contracts for year 2000 business risk analysts, year 2000 remedial service providers and the soon-to-be-added year 2000 tools and software.

It is important to note that the risks associated with the failure to address the year 2000 problem will affect every government portfolio. Following a recommendation from the Cabinet subcommittee on information technology, on 18 May Cabinet endorsed the need for uniform action to be taken by all agencies, statutory authorities, State-owned corporations and government trading enterprises to ensure that the year 2000 problem attracts the highest priority across government. Phase two of the New South Wales Government’s year 2000 millennium strategy raises the level of accountability of all agencies, State-owned corporations and government trading enterprises and requires the implementation of more vigorous measures and actions to address the year 2000 problem.

Page 22

Specific initiatives endorsed by Cabinet in phase two of the whole-of-government year 2000 strategy include the establishment of a year 2000 task force to ensure whole-of-government management of the year 2000 problem. The task force is chaired by the Director-General of the Premier’s Department and will work with the Office of Information Technology and the Government Information Management Board to provide direction and guidance on the implementation of the Government’s year 2000 millennium strategy and advice and recommendations to Cabinet as required.

Additional funding of $1 million for 1998-99 and 1999-2000 will be shared between the Office of Information Technology and the Department of State and Regional Development for year 2000 programs. The Office of Information Technology will use this funding for overall project management and the Government’s year 2000 program. The Department of State and Regional Development will use the funds to assist small to medium enterprises. The Treasurer will require all statutory authorities, State-owned corporations and government trading enterprises - particularly power, water and essential services - to comply with the Government’s year 2000 millennium strategy as a minimum, and to ensure the year 2000 problem is given the highest priority. Included in this year’s budget are allocations totalling in excess of $300 million for major government sector information technology projects.

[Time expired.]

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 4. Will this year’s millennium bug funding be sufficient to correct the problems before the year 2000? Have you received any indication from agencies that they will require additional funding? If so, what is the amount required?

Mr YEADON: The Government has been rolling out the best possible response to the millennium bug problem since 1996. People in businesses in New South Wales can feel confident that the Government is taking all necessary steps to ensure functions and services will not be interrupted as a result of the year 2000 bug. The New South Wales Government is considered to be in front of this problem and continues to deliver initiatives and solutions. I have already indicated that allocations in excess of $300 million for major government sector information technology projects are contained in this year’s budget.

Included in that amount is more than $100 million for specific year 2000 correction projects. These projects cover the health, education and emergency services sectors, as well as the revenue systems of Treasury and the Department of Gaming and Racing. I should also add that an amount of $1 million has been allocated to ensure that the computer systems at Parliament House are not affected by the year 2000 bug. However, it is important to note that in addition to the $100 million that can be directly attributed to year 2000 projects, it is anticipated that the funds allocated to all agencies for information technology use will in some way ensure individual agency year 2000 preparedness.

For example, EnergyAustralia was allocated $39 million in this year’s budget for information technology, and only last week the chief executive officer of that organisation made public the fact that EnergyAustralia has a $40 million year 2000 correction strategy. I am sure that other agencies will use funds allocated this year for the same endeavours. These information technology budget allocations are but another step in the Government’s comprehensive strategy to ensure that the wellbeing of New South Wales does not suffer because of a lack of preparation.

New South Wales Government agencies have already spent considerable time and effort in combating the millennium bug and are well advanced in taking the necessary steps to assess their millennium bug exposures and rectify the problem. Agency chief executive officers are responsible for achieving systems compliance and are accountable for implementing the recommended methodology. The budget allocations of this year build upon funds provided to government agencies in budgets during the past three years. This year’s budget allocation will build upon those previous three years, to ensure that the Government is equipped with information systems that will function well beyond the year 2000.

The Government’s year 2000 strategy commenced in 1996 with a series of awareness and education initiatives. Since then the Government has allocated $750,000 per annum to support the establishment of a dedicated year 2000 project team. It has established an extremely informative year 2000 web site and developed a risk assessment methodology that is now being used by other governments, as I indicated earlier. An additional $250,000 per year for the next two years has been provided to the Department of State and Regional Development to assist with year 2000 education and familiarisation. That is particularly for small and medium businesses. Acknowledging the importance of the efficient use of resources available to the Government to assist with year 2000 work, a number of period panel contracts with suppliers have been established for the provision of year 2000 business risk analysts and remedial software.

Page 23

[Time expired.]

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: I ask a supplementary question. Who will audit the millennium bug conversion compliance? What reporting arrangements are in place for the audit? Who is responsible for initiating the audit for the year 2000 compliance?

Mr YEADON: All agencies are required to report back by 30 June this year in relation to their status on the year 2000 work. By 30 September all agencies will be required to report on their risk assessment and analysis of their year 2000 problems. They are also required to have an independent assessment by the Auditor-General, private auditors or analysts in the period panel contract.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 63, agency 4, program 4.1, subprogram 4.1.9, line item "Fees for services". "Fees for services" from the Office of Information Technology show projected earnings of $7.9 million. What are the activities undertaken by the office for which a fee is charged? Are any fees generated from non-government activities and if so how much?

Mr YEADON: Fees are received from the Government radio network as follows: end user tariffs, $5,522,479; interconnect access, $248,951; Telstra rebates, $100,000; Motorola sales, $150,000; and Treasury supplementation, $1,272,000. In relation to expenditure items under the Government radio network, end user charges, which are paid out, equalled $3,312,889; maintenance, $694,502; site costs, $571,397; and link/electricity costs, $2,170,212.

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 2, Volume 1, page 63, agency 4, program 4.1, subprogram 4.1.9, "Technology services". That indicates that 31 staff are employed in the Office of Information Technology. What is the structure of the office and why have staff numbers been reduced from the 1997-98 budget figure of 33?

Mr YEADON: The 1998-99 budget papers indicate that the Office of Information Technology’s average estimated full-time staff is 31. These estimates were based on positions filled at the time of the formulation of the budget papers but did not address vacant, re-evaluated, proposed new projects, and proposed new positions under the restructure. As a result, the Office of Information Technology establishment will increase to 45 positions. The estimated full-time staff allocated funds from Treasury is 26. Further full-time staff are working on year 2000 and strategic relationship agreement programs and their salaries are funded out of their corresponding program budgets.

The year 2000 budget also funds an administrative assistant position. The internet strategy project funding allows for three project managers. The senior principal consultant positions have been re-evaluated to establish within the Office of Information Technology’s existing budget three project managers, one communications co-ordinator and one administrative assistant position. Recently recruited positions to be allocated salaries from within the Office of Information Technology’s budget are a year 2000 manager, a senior consultant, a policy and administrative assistant, and electronic services.

Two new positions created as a result of a recent restructure are an executive officer, management, and an assistant in the strategy and industry development branch. The total salaries cost for 1998-99 is $3.972 million. These expenses can be broken down as follows: salaries and associated costs are $3.271 million for 45 employees. This gives staff an average salary of $72,000 per annum, which is inclusive of both salaries and on-costs. The comparable salary rates in the private sector, as documented in the Australian Computer Society study in April 1998 are, for senior project manager, $116,300, compared to the equivalent position in the OIT of $88,886.

[Time expired.]

CHAIR: By agreement we are going to reduce our times for the Government and the crossbench by five minutes each. So there will be 10 minutes for Government and 10 minutes for crossbench questions. So, we are picking up some time we have lost, if that is acceptable to you.

Mr YEADON: Very generous, Mr Chairman.

The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: Minister, we have heard some very specific things so far in answer to the Opposition’s questions. I wonder if you can enlarge for us on the overall role of the Office of Information Technology in the government sector?

Mr YEADON: The Government recognises that information technology is best exploited by a whole-of-government approach. Effective
Page 24
management is achieved by issuing direction and guidance, monitoring progress and launching whole-of-Government initiatives. This Government is committed to a whole-of-Government approach to the management and use of information technology and communications to improve the service delivery mechanism of the public sector. The previous unco-ordinated approach led to an unnecessarily wide diversity of systems and applications that did not provide value for money from a whole-of-Government perspective. The Office of Information Technology has been established with responsibility for these tasks.

The creation of the Government Information Management Board and the Office of Information Technology has provided central direction, oversight and assistance to agencies to establish a co-ordinated, integrated and strategic approach to the management of information and information technology. If these organisations had not been created the State would be heading for catastrophe in the year 2000, because the necessary action would not have been taken in time for comprehensive and co-ordinated remedial action to take place. The foundation for the Government’s information, management and technology initiatives has been the information management and technology blueprint "A well connected future". This focuses on information technology reform and establishes a number of actions to ensure improved management and use of information technology, and includes a policy and guideline framework. The policy and guideline framework consists of memoranda and guidelines for the use of agencies in managing, planning and using information technology; and of memoranda and guidelines that give New South Wales agencies specific directions for implementing the nine strategies in the information management and technology blueprint.

Memoranda published since August 1997 address issues such as the year 2000 problem, strategic information technology planning, business case development, the management of information, security of electronic information, wide area data communications using the Internet, smart cards, government selected application systems program, and managing major projects. Guidelines covering strategic planning, business case development, chief information officer, information management, security of electronic information, Internet implementation, contracting out of benefits, management, security of information systems and X500 directories have been developed and published in the past 12 months. The framework has been endorsed by the Government Information Management Board and is revised regularly to reflect the need for new policy directions. The policy framework is provided on the Internet for the information of all agencies.

The Government Information and Management Board is an advisory committee reporting to the Minister for Information Technology. The board’s role is to ensure the Government’s information and technology resources are strategically managed and applied to deliver efficient, cost-effective services at internationally accepted levels to clients and the community. The board has an ongoing involvement in two key processes: the review of agency information management and technology strategic plan; and the annual screening review of capital funding bids for information management and technology projects. There is the annual assessment of information technology strategic plans. The Office of Information Technology, in conjunction with the Government Information Management Board -

[Time expired.]

The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: I would certainly like to ask a supplementary question, because I did seek that overall picture.

Mr YEADON: I can provide considerably more information on this area. The Office of Information Technology, in conjunction with the Government Information Management Board, monitors and reviews agency information technology strategic plans to ensure greater cohesion and effectiveness. As a result, plans are of a higher quality and business proposals have a stronger business focus. Projects are aligned with Government directions and strategies and more often than not involve a number of agencies sharing or exchanging information to provide more efficient government business solutions. Government sectors such as the justice agencies, land, natural resources and the health area are working towards establishing common information sharing and information exchange infrastructures to streamline service delivery.

As part of the annual budget process for capital funding, budget sector agencies are required to submit significant information technology proposals involving expenditure of half a million dollars or more to the Office of Information Technology for review and endorsement by the Government Information Management Board. There is also the Government selected applications system, whose objective is to reduce the variety of software used by agencies, which results in cost-effectiveness and quality products being used. The applications covered by the Government selected applications system program are HRM, or human resource management; FMS, financial management systems; RMS, record management systems; EMS, electronic mail systems; IMS, integrated management systems;
Page 25
and, finally, LMS, library management systems. There is the Government radio network, which is owned by the Government. The contract is managed by the Office of Information Technology and operated by Telstra. Its radio communications services are available to all radio-using agencies, instead of them building and operating their own separate systems.

In the area of mobile telephony and related wireless service agreements, three telecommunication companies have been secured to provide wireless services, including mobile telephone services, for voice data and the Internet. The agreements were non-exclusive and competitive, causing cost-effective and efficient services to be a priority. The foundation for connecting business, government and community is laid out in the strategy called connect.nsw, which is the next step in implementing the framework in the blueprint. The program provides four strategies to enhance and develop the use of the Internet and related innovations in New South Wales. First, integrated government focuses on common infrastructure to achieve synergies within and between government agencies.

A key part of integrated government is the government network service. The Office of Information Technology promoted development by service suppliers of a robust Internet protocol-based service for agencies. The services should support the initiatives for electronic service delivery and electronic commerce within New South Wales. Concept trials for the network service have been completed, and a request for tender for across government network services is being finalised. The benefits of the network service will assist New South Wales by establishing new points of Internet presence - basically, where one can plug into the Internet - which will assist regional and rural communities to attract Internet services and allow the improvement of commercial potential for business and services. Information management is another key focus.

The Office of Information Technology has developed and published guidelines for information audit, classification and inventory. Guidelines were also developed for information custodianship, copyright, licensing and privacy custodianship. The benefits are that agencies can share information and communicate with each other using common standards in a secure environment. This, of course, leads to a more efficient public sector that can provide better service delivery to the public. In the justice sector, the Attorney General’s Department, the New South Wales Police Service, the Judicial Commission and the departments of public prosecutions and juvenile justice are working together to establish a common platform for exchanging information. One of the first key outcomes of those initiatives is the apprehended violence orders data exchange pilot.

[Time expired.]

CHAIR: In light of constant research and solid information that there will be a severe shortage of skills in the information technology area and the fact that New South Wales will become a preferred hub for electronic commerce, is the Government doing enough to develop programs to give people, and particularly young people, sufficient skills to pursue a career in information technology?

Mr YEADON: You are right in identifying a dearth of skills in the information technology area. That issue is being exacerbated at present because of the existence of the year 2000 bug. All governments and organisations - indeed everyone around the world who has any contact with information technology - need to ensure that they will be year 2000 compliant. The time line is very tight, 31 December 1999 being the deadline for dealing with problems with the year 2000 bug. Given the very tight time line of only 18 months, there is ever-increasing pressure within the broader community, not only in Australia but throughout the world, to find people with the relevant and necessary expertise to deal with the year 2000 bug. That puts additional pressure across the industry generally. The New South Wales Government is very conscious of that and is undertaking major training programs within the TAFE system. I am not able to provide details on the programs this evening because they are primarily being handled within TAFE.

I know that New South Wales TAFE is very highly regarded and is applauded in many areas, particularly in the information technology area, for its innovative training curriculum development and delivery. TAFE is using multimedia and information technology in providing that training. The other key aspect on which the Government is concentrating is the acquisition of the necessary skills or the necessary interest in young people across the State so that information technology will be one of the areas for future careers they look to, hopefully with an interest. One of the key strategies the Government has implemented in that regard is the connection of all schools to the Internet. The Government is particularly proud of that program.

All public schools in New South Wales are now connected to the Internet, providing all students in our schools with the ability to have access to a computer and a connection to the Internet to, first, understand what it is all about and, second and more important, develop skills in that area and a comfort with using information technology. Undoubtedly it will be the case that many young people will gain an interest in information technology and pursue careers in that area. Finally, I point out that the
Page 26
Government has also established traineeships, which I announced in the Parliament some weeks ago. In the next year some 200 traineeships will be filled. Young people will be trained in information technology in the workplace, with an emphasis on dealing with year 2000 bug problems. I emphasise that, while the traineeships will on the practical work-related component dealing with the year 2000 bug, the skills that will be gained by those young trainees will be applicable across the information technology industry.

CHAIR: Pages 16-24 of the document "An Internet Strategy for NSW" set out a number of targets that were to be completed by June 1998. Will those targets be reached by the end of this month or are they about to be reached?

Mr YEADON: The dates that you have referred to are starting dates of major projects. A large number of the projects are already completed and all of them have been commenced and are under way.

CHAIR: The Committee will now deal with the Office of Western Sydney.

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: Minister, I refer you to Budget Paper No. 4, page 44, and the item "Campbelltown - Arts and Media Child Studies facilities", which last year was listed as a project. I understand the starting date was 1996, but it has now been put back to 1997, and the completion date is 2000. Minister, $4.086 million was allocated in 1997-98 but only $114,000 was spent. This year $2.4 million has been allocated. The percentage of forecast expenditure, as I calculate it, is 1.8 per cent. Does the Government have any commitment to this facility or is it a token gesture to appease the people of Campbelltown until after the election, given that they do not have a local member?

Mr YEADON: Contrary to the honourable member’s statement, I did not allocate the money. It is standard for standing committees examining budget estimates that its members ask questions relating to the program area under discussion, in this case the western Sydney program. This question is about the operation of a different budget program which I, as the Minister Assisting the Premier on Western Sydney, do not administer. The question is therefore outside the scope of this Committee.

However, by taking a regional perspective I will be able to inform the Government and Parliament, even if each individual program is working well, whether the total mix of programs and services is appropriate to meet the needs of western Sydney. In my capacity as Minister Assisting the Premier on Western Sydney I am present to answer questions relating to the western Sydney program of the Ministry of Forest and Marine Administration as shown in the budget papers. However, I am happy to refer the question to the appropriate portfolio Minister for a response. The budget program item that has been identified is a Technical and Further Education matter, which falls under the jurisdiction of the Minister for Education and Training.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: Page 517 of Budget Paper No. 3 refers to programs under the western Sydney strategy. Will the Minister advise the identity and nature of some of the more significant of the 30 new partnerships and alliances formed with government, business and the community? Will the Minister provide a list of the 30 new partnerships?

Mr YEADON: The Office of Western Sydney, established by the Government, is responsible for providing the Government with high-level strategic advice on western Sydney issues. The office is also developing a whole-of-government and regional approach to address economic development and social and environmental priorities in the region. Partnerships are a vital way to work in such a complex region as western Sydney, where there are many important stakeholders. The office is not another level of bureaucracy in western Sydney but acts as a catalyst. It brings existing government and non-government agencies, business, industry and the community together to work on initiatives which will benefit the western Sydney region.

The office is already playing a major role in creating partnerships with government agencies - regional and State - business, industry and community organisations. Lead government agencies, business and industry organisations, community organisations, the University of Western Sydney and private sector organisations are already working with the Office of Western Sydney to deliver better outcomes for the region.

For example, the Office of Western Sydney is working with State agencies to address the TeamWest regional agenda 1998. The agenda consists of 70 recommendations for regional initiatives which will assist councils, businesses and community organisations to deliver results on economic development, human services, information technology and environmental management priorities. The partnerships and alliances formed by the Office of Western Sydney are with key stakeholder agencies, organisations and groups that represent the interests of western Sydney. They are the peak decision makers in the economic, social and environmental areas that will develop innovative solutions to meet the needs of people living and working in western Sydney.

Page 27
The 30 agencies, organisations and groups in western Sydney with whom partnerships are being developed include: the Western Sydney Regional Organisation of Councils, the Macarthur Regional Organisation of Councils, TeamWest, the Department of State and Regional Development, the Department of Urban Affairs and Planning, the Department of Education and Training, the Department of Community Services, the Department of Transport, the State Rail Authority, Australian Business Ltd, the Metal Trades Industry Association of Australia, 12 local government councils, the Environment Protection Authority, the Premier’s Department and the Sustainable Energy Development Authority.

Others include: the Greater Western Sydney Economic Development Board, the Grow Employment Council, the Greater Western Sydney Business Connection Incorporated, the Blacktown Regional Economic and Employment Development Task Force Incorporated, Greater Western Sydney Tourism Incorporated, Western Sydney Information Technology Centre Ltd, the Greater Western Sydney Regional Chamber of Commerce and Industry Incorporated, the Western Youth Action and Policy Association, the Western Sydney Community Forum, the ArtsWest Foundation, three migrant resource centres, the University of Western Sydney, the Hawkesbury-Nepean Catchment Management Trust - [Time expired.]

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: I ask a supplementary question. Is that all?

Mr YEADON: Others include: two regional waste boards, the Upper Parramatta River Catchment Management Trust, three regional development organisations, the Western Sydney Regional Information and Research Service Ltd, Westpac Banking Corporation, the National Roads and Motorists Association and Integral Energy. That is quite an impressive list and one of which we are proud because we have been able to make contact and begin work with such a broad range of organisations in such a short space of time, as I have only been the Minister Assisting the Premier on Western Sydney since 1 December 1997.

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: The budget papers identify 35 new regional initiatives to meet priorities in western Sydney. Can the Minister advise and identify the nature of some of the more significant of these new initiatives and provide a list of the 35 initiatives referred to in the budget?

Mr YEADON: A key role of the Office of Western Sydney is to address the economic development, social and environmental priorities for western Sydney. These priorities also reflect but go beyond the priorities of the TeamWest regional agenda for 1998. I draw attention to some of the initiatives being undertaken by the Office of Western Sydney to address the economic development priorities for Western Sydney. Western Sydney is often referred to as an economic powerhouse, with an economy generating $35 million annually.

Manufacturing forms one of the key industries in western Sydney, which has the largest industrial estates in the southern hemisphere. Manufacturing is also the top export earner for New South Wales. Western Sydney has a strong base for advanced manufacturing technology and innovation, which is the way of the future in manufacturing. A regional initiative being led by the Office of Western Sydney to deliver on economic development priorities for the region is in skills development. Indeed, one of the critical factors underpinning the continued growth of the western Sydney economy is its skills base.

The Committee would have noted that in the Western Sydney Budget Statement the Government has allocated more than $200 million to TAFE institutes in western Sydney which will provide vocational education and training for more than 100,000 students. The Department of Education and Training has allocated an additional $8 million for industry training programs and this will be complemented by over $4 million allocated to vocational education and training programs in western Sydney schools. I am pleased that the Greater Western Sydney Regional Chamber of Commerce and Industry highlighted the Government’s achievement and commitment to future skills development in its media release on the Western Sydney Budget Statement. The Office of Western Sydney has established a western Sydney regional skills development committee comprising the Department of Education and Training, TAFE New South Wales, the Regional Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Australian Business Ltd, the Metal Trades Industry Association of Australia, the Western Sydney Business Connection, the Western Sydney Community Forum and the Western Sydney Youth Action and Policy Association.

The Office of Western Sydney, in partnership with that committee, is currently developing a range of innovative training initiatives including targeted prevocational skills development programs for disadvantaged young people, including people with a disability, who have fallen through the cracks of the new Commonwealth employment arrangement. These training programs will be directly linked to job outcomes. Other training initiatives include regional business training and Olympic-related training in areas such as the building and
Page 28
construction industry. The construction industry in western Sydney is booming. Members would note from the Western Sydney Budget Statement that the Government is spending more than $800 million on capital works. In addition, western Sydney will benefit from spending on Olympic developments at Homebush Bay plus a total of $220 million in the 1998-99 year on Olympic sporting facilities in western Sydney. This is aside from major private investment that is currently being undertaken. These capital works projects and Olympic facilities will provide thousands of jobs for western Sydney people. The Office of Western Sydney will work closely with the Department of Education and Training. [Time expired.]

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: The Committee will ask you a supplementary question to allow you to complete your answer.

Mr YEADON: The Office of Western Sydney will be working closely with the Department of Education and Training, TAFE New South Wales and industry training boards to capitalise on the training and employment opportunities generated by the construction boom. The Olympic Games will target sustainable jobs for young people from western Sydney under the training strategy for the building and construction industry, with the support of key industry organisations and unions. The human services agenda developed by TeamWest reflects the significant backlog of services in areas such as health and housing that the Government has been committed to redressing.

The development of a range of human services-related initiatives for western Sydney is a key priority for the Office of Western Sydney in partnership with key State and local government agencies and community organisations. It has already become apparent that the peak community and youth organisations in the region clearly see the Office of Western Sydney as having a leadership role in the area. The Office of Western Sydney is fortunate that among the members of its multidisciplinary team there will be two senior staff from human service agencies who will have the technical expertise and creditability to deliver on key social priorities for the region. The Office of Western Sydney is also providing leadership in addressing the region’s environmental priorities. In July, in partnership with TeamWest, the office will establish a workshop for organisations with environmental responsibilities in western Sydney. It will involve State and local government agencies, statutory boards, and private sector industry and business organisations such as Australian Business Ltd, the Metal Trades Industry Association, the Regional Chamber of Commerce and Industry and, of course, the University of Western Sydney.

This is the first environmental workshop to be held in western Sydney. The objectives of the workshop are to highlight environmental achievements in western Sydney and drive the environmental agenda in conjunction with leading State agencies to deliver on the environmental priorities for TeamWest. This workshop will be the prelude to a major environmental event for western Sydney in the lead-up to the TeamWest conference in October. I have mentioned some initiatives that are being undertaken by the Office of Western Sydney; the list is quite extensive. The Office of Western Sydney has clearly defined its priorities, and is already setting the pace with wide-ranging initiatives covering economic developments by social and environmental authorities.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, line item "Initiatives designed to address backlogs and barriers to government service delivery". Are these initiatives additional to the partnership and regional initiatives otherwise referred to? Will the Minister Assisting the Premier on Western Sydney identify those initiatives?

Mr YEADON: Yes, they are in addition. Often government business and community services are not delivered most cost effectively because of a range of barriers. By adopting a whole-of-government and whole-of-region approach perceived barriers can be broken down. For example, there are three area health service boards which operate in western Sydney. Government agencies, local councils or community organisations interested in working with the Health Department may find it too complex to work with three area health service boards. In that case the Office of Western Sydney is in a good position to assist the agency, council or community group to contact the relevant people and assist the project or policy to be implemented.

In the longer term, however, the Office of Western Sydney could work with the three area health boards and the Health Department head office to develop ways so that such bureaucratic barriers would not deter people in the future. In other words, structural barriers can be addressed by the office in the short term and, where necessary, the office can bring these structural problems to the attention of decision makers where longer-term structural changes may be required. Another barrier which may have contributed to backlogs in western Sydney has been the lack of co-ordinated government service delivery. A good example of how these barriers are being overcome is a pilot program mentioned in the Western Sydney Budget Statement. In the Schools as Community Centres Program, the departments of Health, Community Services, Juvenile Justice and Education are working together
Page 29
to provide a mix and match of services for families with children under the age of five years. This type of model needs to be developed and extended because it not only leads to a more convenient and less intrusive delivery of services to individuals, families and communities in western Sydney, but often does so more cost-effectively than having agencies work in isolation.

This is part of the rationale behind the first Western Sydney Budget Statement. As a planning tool the Western Sydney Budget Statement will assist government in identifying potential gaps and duplications in service delivery and assist in identifying how agencies could work more closely. Government does not operate in a void; the alliances and partnership with key western Sydney businesses and community organisations are also vital. Barriers, however, can develop between government agencies and the business and community sector as a result of a lack of information or poor communication. The Office of Western Sydney is assisting agencies, businesses and community groups to communicate and work together to achieve their common goals.

In summary, barriers which have resulted in backlogs in services in the past are being addressed by the Office of Western Sydney in partnership with relevant stakeholders in western Sydney by identifying and overcoming structural barriers, by facilitating co-operative ventures between agencies and other groups in western Sydney, and by assisting communications and information sharing between organisations. In addition to the initiatives I have just mentioned, initiatives are being developed in areas such as education and training, the environment and transport. These individual initiatives will be announced by the Government at the appropriate time.

The Hon. C. J. S. LYNN: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, regarding the Government’s plan to achieve significant improvements in economic performance, social development and urban liveability of western Sydney -

[Time expired.]

The Hon. CARMEL TEBBUTT: I refer the Minister to page 517 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2, relating to the objectives of the western Sydney program. The Minister spoke at length about specific initiatives. Will the Minister provide more details about the strategic objectives of the western Sydney program in the forthcoming year?

Mr YEADON: The Government has recognised the diversity and strength of western Sydney as a region. Western Sydney is home to 1.5 million people or 43 per cent of the Sydney population, many of whom come from non-English speaking backgrounds. Western Sydney has the most diverse population in New South Wales, and probably in Australia. For example, living in Fairfield City Council alone are people from 130 nations who speak more than 60 languages. It produces $35 billion in goods and services, which is 20 per cent of the gross State product. For example, it counts firms such as Buttercup Bakeries, Pilkington Glass, IBM computers, Integral Energy, Australia’s Wonderland, Proctor and Gamble, and Sun Masamune among its list of corporate citizens.

Natural jewels such as the Blue Mountains National Park and the Hawkesbury-Nepean river system are important to the growing tourism sector. In the Camden local government area alone, the agriculture, food processing and textile sector is the second largest industrial sector in terms of employment and is projected to continue growing into the next century. The Government is committed to addressing the backlogs of social, health and economic infrastructure in this large, rapidly growing and complex region. The western Sydney program has three strategic objectives: first, to provide a strategic whole-of-government policy framework which will assist government agencies, councils, business and community organisations to deliver programs and services efficiently and effectively; second, to secure a co-ordinated approach to meeting the needs of the people of western Sydney and in particular to address the 70 regional priorities identified by TeamWest; and, third, to develop and implement whole-of-government and whole-of-region initiatives in western Sydney and in particular initiatives that are innovative and better meet the needs of the people of western Sydney.

For the information of members I shall briefly describe the significance of TeamWest. In 1997 the Western Sydney Regional Organisation of Councils, the Macarthur Regional Organisation of Councils, community-based organisations and the University of Western Sydney worked co-operatively to identify agreed priorities in development of the greater western Sydney region. There was a degree of informal liaison with relevant State government agencies at regional office level in the development of those priorities. TeamWest was significant because these organisations worked together to develop an agreed set of priorities for action. Probably for the first time in Australia on a regional scale the organisations worked together on the basis of a common geographical area, rather than thinking of themselves in terms of their separate individual
Page 30
agency functions.

In 1998 TeamWest developed a regional agenda specifying common goals and priorities for greater western Sydney which will be used to advocate these priorities to State and Federal governments. I received the regional agenda on behalf of the Government on 20 April 1998 after it was endorsed by TeamWest regional leaders from key western Sydney organisations, including WSROC, MACROC, the Greater Western Sydney Economic Development Board, the Hawkesbury-Nepean Catchment Management Trust and the Western Sydney Community Forum. In the past the co-ordination of government agencies at the regional level has rarely occurred, and links between government business and the community at a regional level has not occurred. Better co-ordination has not occurred, for example, because some government agencies covered all the region, some had a north-west regional office and a south-west regional office, some such as the Department of Health had three different area health service boards covering some or all of the region, and other agencies had boundaries not only covering western Sydney but also incorporating other parts of Sydney, or even parts of the Illawarra.

This resulted in government goods and services appearing to be allocated across the region in an ad hoc way over a long period. That creates difficulties for companies wanting to invest in western Sydney, for example, that want a co-ordinated idea of the availability of land for industrial purposes and the cost of such land, or a clear picture of the skills base of the labour force across the region. The Government is committed to improving co-ordination in western Sydney and bringing together the key stakeholders throughout the region, including key business groups such as the Greater Western Sydney Regional Chamber of Commerce and Industry, key community groups such as the Western Sydney Community Forum and key State government agencies, local government councils, WSROC and MACROC.

For those reasons the Government established the first ever position of Minister for Western Sydney with responsibility for improving the economic and social environment in western Sydney and driving whole-of-government initiatives. The Government also established the Office of Western Sydney to provide high-level strategic advice to the Government. The Premier’s Department also funds the Western Sydney Regional Co-ordinator to work with the private sector, government, agencies and other key organisations to fast-track complex investments and other projects in western Sydney. Although not funded from the western Sydney program, the Western Sydney Regional Co-ordinator will be co-located with the Office of Western Sydney.

The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: I refer the Minister to page 517 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 2. I preface my question by saying that as a member of the board of the University of Western Sydney I am delighted with what the Minister and the Government are doing in the region.

Mr YEADON: Thank you.

The Hon. JAN BURNSWOODS: Will the Minister tell us whether the Western Sydney Budget Statement is an example of co-ordinating a whole-of-region initiative?

Mr YEADON: Like the Hon. Jan Burnswoods, I am excited about the Government’s relationship with the University of Western Sydney and with our office being located on one of the university’s campuses. That will send a message to western Sydney that the Government is looking at innovative ways of providing services, rather than simply throwing buckets of money at the region or adopting the same old tired, hackneyed approach. It is terrific to have that working relationship in the region. This year, for the first time, an outline of key spending for western Sydney has been summarised in a separate western Sydney budget paper released with the budget papers. The objectives of the Western Sydney Budget Statement are simple. It is designed to identify the capital and recurrent funding provided to western Sydney on a whole-of-government basis and the gaps and overlaps in government service provision to western Sydney.

The statement is an important tool in ensuring more efficient and effective delivery of government services and programs in western Sydney. The statement is a vital document for three reasons. Firstly, it provides greater accountability of government to the 1.5 million people who live in western Sydney by giving an indication of where government spending is going in the west; secondly, it will help the Parliament, government, agencies and community organisations to identify gaps in service delivery in western Sydney and areas of overlap and duplication; and, finally, as departments get better at providing measures of outcomes in western Sydney the statement will assist the Parliament, government, agencies and the people of western Sydney to determine whether the west is getting the appropriate mix of goods and services.

The first Western Sydney Budget Statement has set a benchmark for future budget statements. In the future agencies will provide a complete
Page 31
breakdown of all their operational and program funding, and will need to identify and measure the outcomes as they are delivered in western Sydney. In this way the Government continually improves its co-ordination of service delivery throughout western Sydney. It will take three years before it could be expected that every agency will provide a comprehensive statement of its funding and results for the people of the region. The Western Sydney Budget Statement was not a description of every program or funding delivered throughout Sydney’s west, because that is already documented throughout Budget Paper No. 2. However, its value comes from listing funding details in a single document. This Government intends to continually improve the Western Sydney Budget Statement as a planning tool.

The Hon. CARMEL TEBBUTT: Can you inform the Committee of next year’s expected outcomes of the Office of Western Sydney?

Mr YEADON: The establishment of the Office of Western Sydney was announced in December last year. Since that time it has employed and seconded staff and contacted major stakeholders in western Sydney, including those in government, in the private sector, in the University of Western Sydney, in councils and so forth. The Office of Western Sydney has a number of aims, including to establish a strategic whole-of-government policy framework to assist the Government to deliver programs and services efficiently and effectively, to liaise with other government agencies to secure a co-ordinated approach to meet the needs of the people of western Sydney, and to develop and implement whole-of-government and whole-of-region initiatives in western Sydney, particularly innovative initiatives.

Projects such as the Western Sydney Budget Statement will be co-ordinated by the Office of Western Sydney. Earlier this month the office organised the successful western Sydney budget breakfast following the release of the Western Sydney Budget Statement. The function was attended by more than 120 western Sydney leaders who were addressed by the Treasurer and me. The statement will be used as an important planning tool. Along with the Western Sydney Regional Co-ordinator from the Premier’s Department, the Office of Western Sydney will continue to improve co-ordination between State government agencies, all tiers of government, the community and business. The Office of Western Sydney is working with agencies to implement the 70 recommendations or regional priorities in the 1998 TeamWest regional agenda.

The office has developed a Western Sydney Regional Skills Development Committee consisting of representatives from the Department of Education and Training, TAFE New South Wales, the regional Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Australian Business Limited, the Metal Trades Industry Association, the Western Sydney Business Connection, the Western Sydney Community Forum and the Youth Action Policy Association. The Office of Western Sydney in partnership with the committee is currently developing a range of innovative training initiatives, including targeted pre-vocational skills development programs for disadvantaged young people, including those with a disability.

These training programs will be linked directly to job outcomes. Other training initiatives include regional business training and Olympic-related training in areas such as building and construction. In partnership with TeamWest the office is initiating a workshop for all organisations with environmental responsibilities in western Sydney. This will involve State and local government agencies, statutory boards, the private sector and business organisations, and of course the University of Western Sydney. This is the first environmental workshop to be held in western Sydney. The objectives of the workshop are to highlight environmental achievements in western Sydney and to drive the environmental agenda in conjunction with leading State agencies to deliver on environmental priorities for TeamWest. This workshop will be the prelude to a major environmental event in western Sydney and will lead to the TeamWest conference in October.

CHAIR: Aboriginal community groups in western Sydney have found that one of the greatest problems Aborigines experience in western Sydney is lack of comprehensible information about government services. While each service provider produces individual information about its services, the information is not co-ordinated. What is the Government doing to ensure that Aboriginal community groups in western Sydney are provided with the funds they need to establish resource centres through which all government service information can be funnelled to their communities?

Mr YEADON: I will have to raise that issue with my colleague the Deputy Premier, Minister for Health, and Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, Andrew Refshauge, who will be co-ordinating and oversighting programs for Aboriginal people in western Sydney. The Office of Western Sydney certainly wants to ensure that people are connected with government, know what it is doing and how to seek information. We will probably consider that issue to determine how government information services can be better provided to Aboriginal communities in western Sydney and, indeed, to all
Page 32
communities in western Sydney. One key area that already operates and will continue to develop is ServiceNSW, which is the Government’s one window on the Internet that provides government information and services.

A vast array of agencies are represented in that one window entry. Over time that service will build and move from being largely information based to government electronic service delivery. In other words, it will deliver government services through the Internet. This will prevent people from having to run around a maze of government offices trying to find the information they need or trying to connect with the right people. Indeed, it will even prevent them from having to run around those government offices that they already know they have to queue in to undertake government business. We will progressively move that business to the Internet. People will be able to access government services through their home or workplace computer, or undoubtedly through a computer provided in a public forum, for example, provided at a location identified by the Government such as a kiosk or available through face-to-face assistance in libraries, councils, et cetera. However, that is the broad strategic direction the Government is taking. Certainly this service will be of major benefit to the Aboriginal community, to all non-English speaking background communities and all people of New South Wales.

CHAIR: The Western Sydney Drug and Alcohol Resource Centre provides information resources to a diverse and large demographic community that includes areas from Penrith and the Blue Mountains through to Warragamba Dam, North Richmond and the Hawkesbury. Recent statistics have suggested that the money spent per person on alcohol and other drugs services in the west is around $1.31 compared to $14.36 per person in the central Sydney area, according to Jim Rankin in "Achieving Sustainable Funding for Non-Government Organisations, 1997". Can you explain these discrepancies and how they will be rectified?

Mr YEADON: It is standard procedure for members of standing committees that are examining budget estimates to ask questions relating to the program area under discussion, that is, the western Sydney program. Your question is about the operation of a different budget program which I do not administer and which I suggest is outside the scope of this Committee.

CHAIR: It specifically refers to western Sydney, which is your responsibility.

Mr YEADON: I do not administer every government program in western Sydney; that is handled by the relevant Minister. I will take your question on notice and refer it to the relevant Minister.

CHAIR: Many existing youth programs in western Sydney are funded for a solo worker, although the Department of Community Services guidelines clearly state that working solo is unacceptable practice. Also, programs such as circuit breaker and the helping early leavers program, HELP, are State government funded but have not received consumer price index increases for a number of years. Many of those programs are under considerable financial hardship. Will you ensure that funding for those programs is maintained and increased?

Mr YEADON: That particular program is not under my direct responsibility. I will take the question on notice and refer it to the relevant Minister.

CHAIR: There has long been a predominance of government funded youth services in Sydney and south Sydney compared with western Sydney. Why has there been no shift in funding to the west when the proportion of need has dramatically shifted to the west?

Mr YEADON: Once again I do not have direct responsibility for the allocation of funding within that portfolio. I will take your question on notice and refer it to the relevant Minister.

CHAIR: Aboriginal communities in western Sydney have found that their clients are keen to learn about computers and the Internet, but do not have the resources to do so and will therefore be left behind by technological advancement. Are you able to give any details about how much money will be set aside within your budget to provide those resources for Aboriginal groups in western Sydney in particular?

Mr YEADON: No money from within my budget will be set aside to provide such services for the Aboriginal community or indeed for any other. The Office of Information Technology has a broad oversight of information technology within government. It is not charged with direct responsibility for development, implementation and resourcing of programs within government that may be handled by another agency. With regard to training for young Aborigines, more than $200 million will be provided for TAFE institutes in western Sydney to provide skill development for more than 100,000 students in Sydney’s west, complemented by more than $8 million for industry training programs through the Department of Education and Training. These include
Page 33
apprenticeships, traineeships and programs for Aboriginal people and mature workers.

CHAIR: Unemployment and training schemes in western Sydney do not have enough computer support. Some, for example, have only one Internet connection and when they are using that connection
for education and training purposes the office is effectively out of commission. What provision, if any, has been made in the budget for increased computer support for training and education services? You have partly answered the question.

Mr YEADON: Such matters are the responsibility of the particular provider. That could be by way of private resource or public resource - government grants and programs that might be State or Federal. I would say that the predominance would be funded by a Federal grant. It is the responsibility of the particular provider to have the allocation of resources necessary to conduct their business. That would be a matter for each one of those individual providers, within the rubicon of their grant funding if they are publicly funded.

CHAIR: Finally, are you able to give Western Sydney Regional Organisation of Councils, WSROC, and Macarthur Regional Organisation of Councils, MACROC, an assurance that the new portfolio and corresponding budget funding allocation for western Sydney represents an ongoing commitment by your Government and that it will continue after the next State election?

Mr YEADON: Yes.

The Committee proceeded to deliberate on the recommendation of the vote.

Page 34

GENERAL PURPOSE STANDING COMMITTEE No. 1

Thursday, 18 June 1998

Examination of proposed expenditure for the portfolio areas

PREMIER, ARTS AND ETHNIC AFFAIRS

The Committee met at 6.30 p.m.

MEMBERS

Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile (Chair)

The Hon. Virginia Chadwick

The Hon. J. R. Johnson

The Hon. P. T. Primrose

The Hon J. M. Samios

______

PRESENT

The Hon. R. J. Carr, Premier, Minister for the Arts, and Minister for Ethnic Affairs

Premier’s Department
Dr C. Gellatly, Director-General

Cabinet Office
Mr R. Wilkins, Director-General

Ministry for the Arts
Mr E. Williams, Secretary

Ethnic Affairs Commission
Mr S. Kerkyasharian, Chair

Treasury
Mr C. Weir, Agency Relationship Manager
Mr S. Andric, Agency Relationship Manager

______

Page 35

CHAIR: I declare this Committee open. At this meeting the Committee will examine the proposed expenditure from the Consolidated Fund for the portfolio area of the Premier, Minister for the Arts, and Minister for Ethnic Affairs. Before questions commence some procedural matters need to be dealt with.

Whilst paragraph 7 of the budget estimates reference provides that a member of a committee, and any Minister present to answer questions, may have staff present to assist them during the hearing of evidence and may refer to those staff at any time, I remind members’ staff and any other persons that they should take care not to interrupt proceedings and that they should observe the usual courtesies that apply to a meeting of the House or of a committee. Where possible, messages for members should be given to the attendant on duty or the Committee Clerk.

Members of the media, the Committee resolved on 4 June 1998 that the press and public may be admitted to proceedings of the Committee. I wish to explain to you what is required by the standing orders of the Legislative Council in this regard so that you will be aware of the position. Legislative Council Standing Order 252 provides:

Evidence taken by any Select Committee of the House, and documents presented to such a Committee which have not been reported to the House, may not, except with the permission of the Committee, be disclosed or published by any Member of such Committee or by any other person.

In reporting the proceedings of this Committee, as with reporting the proceedings of both Houses of Parliament, you must take responsibility for what you publish or what interpretation is placed on anything that is said before the Committee. In order to accurately complete the Questions and Answers papers, the Committee Clerk requires that members complete and sign the appropriate form when a question is taken or given on notice. For the benefit of members and Hansard, I ask departmental officials to identify themselves by name, position and department or agency before answering each question. The allocation of time for questioning is as per the manual for budget estimates hearings. The Committee will commence with 30 minutes for the Opposition.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 55, subprogram 4.1.5 Ministerial and Parliamentary Services, line item "Operating expenses - Employee related". Were Ms Constantina Dertimanis and Ms Louise Saunders, former staffers to the previous Minister for Community Services, the Hon. R. D. Dyer, employed under section 38 of the Public Sector Management Act? Prior to the change of portfolio of the Hon. R. D. Dyer, were they transferred to your department and employed under section 38 of the Public Sector Management Act, and what positions did they hold in your department?

Mr CARR: I would like to take that question on notice.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: In so doing, will you confirm whether it is true that section 38 employees are on contracts that need to be reviewed every four months?

Mr CARR: Yes, I will.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Is it also true that the contracts had been reviewed in the November just prior to their transfer? Can you confirm whether the previous Minister, the Hon. R. D. Dyer, had in fact given glowing reports on those two employees?

Mr CARR: I would have to take that question on notice.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Are you aware of the positions to which those two employees were transferred? Were they vacancies within your department? Were they newly created positions? What was the nature of the positions to which they were transferred?

Mr CARR: I would be happy to find out.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Is it normal for people to be employed within your department without your having an understanding of whether they filled a vacancy or whether a position was created?

Mr CARR: I would need to report back to you.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: In relation to these two young women, given that there are a significant number of unattached persons within the Premier’s Department, were the positions perhaps offered to unattached persons, or did they have a chance to apply for the positions that Ms Dertimanis and Ms Saunders took? Given that on 1 December 1997, in response to a question from Mr Jones on Radio 2UE, "But that is a hopeless administration, surely?", you replied, "Well, it is, and that’s why the staff are no longer there." I presume that you would not willingly place hopeless people in positions within your department. How then did you come to employ these persons whom you publicly considered hopeless?

Page 36
Mr CARR: The question is not based on the proper context of my answer in the Jones transcript.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I could take up the time of the Committee to read the full transcript, but I understand what the Premier is saying. Are the legal costs in relation to that matter contained in line item "Other expenses" set out in subprogram 4.1.5?

Mr CARR: Again, I would need to get advice on that.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Am I correct in my understanding of your comment that you do not recall whether you had to pay legal costs?

Mr CARR: I certainly do not recall.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Do you recall what the financial arrangements may have been relating to the cessation of employment of Ms Saunders from the public service?

Mr CARR: No, I have no idea.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Would you be prepared to provide that information to the Committee?

Mr CARR: Most certainly.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 59, subprogram 4.1.7 Strategic Projects, line item "Operating expenses - Employee related". What funds or other resources have been set aside for consultants or other advice or expenses related to the privatisation of the New South Wales electricity industry? Given that the Treasurer is here, perhaps you have some recall of this item?

Mr CARR: I am advised that there would be no expenses out of this portfolio.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Has the Government employed the services of corporate financial adviser Fay Richwhite to advise the Government on restructuring the State’s electricity industry?

Mr CARR: I shall refer the question to Mr Roger Wilkins, the Director-General of the Cabinet Office.

Mr WILKINS: Yes, Fay Richwhite has been retained to advise the Cabinet Committee on electricity reform; on a number of issues relating to the restructure of the electricity industry and the regulatory environment for electricity.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Given that the Cabinet Office is still part of the Premier’s Department, I presume there is a slight adjustment to the previous answer?

Mr CARR: No, that is quite wrong.

Mr WILKINS: The Cabinet Office is a separate department.

Mr CARR: But I understand your point. Irrespective of whether anyone had raised the question of privatisation of electricity, this study would have been required. It is quite separate from the agenda of electricity privatisation. As even readers of headlines know, there is a major restructuring of the electricity industry in Australia. In that context we are required to set up an altogether new regulatory regime. Whether someone had raised the question of electricity privatisation or not, this study would have been required.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I agree. Are you in a position to indicate the broad parameters of the financial arrangements with Fay Richwhite?

Mr WILKINS: Essentially they are employed under a remit from the Cabinet Committee and paid by Treasury.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Could you indicate in broad figures the estimated quantum of the consultancy?

Mr CARR: That is not a question about these estimates. That would be a question about the Treasurer’s estimates.

CHAIR: You will have to reserve that for the Treasurer’s estimates.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I understand what you said about the broad and general need for a report and advice of this kind. Is it your intention to make the entirety or any portions of the report public? Do you intend to publish the report?

Mr CARR: I would think so, yes.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Is there a time frame?

Mr CARR: The report could be received anywhere within the next few months, and it would be considered by Cabinet. It would then be up to Cabinet to decide what to do with the report.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Given
Page 37
the broad and general importance of the report, has it been distributed to any other persons or groupings within the -

Mr CARR: We have not received the report yet. It has not been concluded.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Do you intend to distribute it?

Mr CARR: We would make up our minds after Cabinet has seen it. It could contain commercial in confidence material.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I understand that aspect, but given that you indicated it was of broad interest and importance to the changing nature of the electricity industry, it would seem quite unusual not to share it with the rest of the industry.

Mr CARR: I agree with that.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I move to Budget Paper No. 2, page 1-45, line item "The Cabinet Office". I refer to the line item "Office of Children and Young People - Families First program". It is a most laudable program. Why is the Office of Children and Young People Families First program a matter for the Cabinet Office rather than another area of Government? I find that unusual.

Mr CARR: It involves the co-operation of a number of different areas of Government. It also involves a consideration that it be regarded as something other than a welfare program. I will ask Roger Wilkins whether he wants to add to that.

Mr WILKINS: This is establishment money to enable the Cabinet Office, through the Office of Children and Young People, to put in place the proper co-ordinating mechanisms. As you will appreciate, a range of programs involving community services, which has been given extra funding, education, et cetera, requires a proper co-ordinating mix at a local and regional level. The Cabinet Office will take care of that aspect of the program. A broad policy framework will require the re-jigging of tasks carried out by different departments and different areas of the State. People employed under the scheme will go to different parts of the State to oversee that process with people in the regions and localities. It will not be ongoing funding. It is to start the program and get it going. The bulk of the funds will go not to the Cabinet Office but to the Department of Community Services.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Does that mean that the funding outlined on page 1-45 of $1.1 million this financial year and $3.2 million leading through to 2001-02 are co-ordinating funds and do not provide any front-line services?

Mr WILKINS: No, not necessarily. We will have to determine whether some of that money will go into services. It may be transferred to the Department of Community Services. At the moment the $1.1 million will be used to employ co-ordinators, that is true. We will have to look at that. The $3.2 million is an estimate that may be revised in the light of what has to be done.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I understand that, but if the $3.2 million is for front-line services of any kind, it should not be in the Cabinet Office budget unless the Cabinet Office has changed or plans to change significantly. I do not imagine you would be going into front-line services. Why is the $3.2 million in the Cabinet Office budget if it is simply being minded for some possible allocation to front-line services? Why is it not held by the Treasurer?

Mr WILKINS: That is not what I said. There is plenty of work to be done to co-ordinate the service delivery in regions and localities. All I am saying is that it is revisable. If we do not need the funds, they will go to DOCS. A lot of this stuff has to be worked out in particular localities and regions. The answer to your question is that in this instance the Cabinet Office is getting involved in front-line services.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I am sorry to be so obtuse, but can I ask bluntly: Is the
Page 38
Cabinet Office in or not in front-line services in this program? Or is it co-ordinating the provision of front-line services?

Mr CARR: The latter is the better description of what Families First is. As you would recall, if you saw the launch material six weeks back, it is about recruiting networks of volunteers to provide assistance to families in trouble. We have to provide for the training of those volunteers and for the distribution of information about networks. The scheme will result in most of that $3.2 million going to DOCS when Families First is up and operating.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Is it not an unusual budgetary arrangement for the Cabinet Office to hold that funding rather than consolidated revenue or some other aspect of Treasury? Why is the Cabinet Office minding money to be handed out, possibly at some later time, to a service?

Mr CARR: The scheme is not purely a welfare scheme. It involves the engagement of different government agencies to provide assistance to families in trouble. The scheme involves putting together a network of volunteers. The Cabinet Office is setting up the structure and allocating the funding. I think it is appropriate that the allocation of funds be expressed that way at this stage. The scheme will be trialled next year in three regions of the State. I think this time next year that $3.2 million will be reflected in other portfolio budgets.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Why was the decision made either to retain the money in Treasury or to put it into community services, pending the arrangement for the services that were going to operate?

Mr CARR: As the Cabinet Office will be co-ordinating it we are structuring this program now. It is an innovative, new program.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: It is a very exciting program, as long as all the money does not go on co-ordination. Given the budget allocation of $1.1 million and $3.2 million, is the Premier in a position to indicate what proportion of that $4.3 million will go to front-line services as opposed to co-ordination?

Mr CARR: If the Hon. Virginia Chadwick is concerned that this money will go on salaries for armies of co-ordinators, I can say that I would be every bit as revolted by that prospect as she would be. Certainly co-ordination is required because we are setting up networks of volunteers. But we will have to fund the training programs for volunteers, for example, the women who come forward and say, "Having had the experience of raising a family I would like to be able to go into a household where there is a lot of pressure on the mother and offer practical assistance - a bit of respite child care, cooking meals, giving the mother some time off and doing some shopping for her." This concept is providing crucial assistance at a time when a family might be under pressure.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Some men might even volunteer.

Mr CARR: I would expect some men to volunteer as well. We need to fund training programs for them. There will be data collection, monitoring, evaluation and research programs. We need to develop models of service which are tailored to the needs of Aboriginal and non-English speaking communities and develop that volunteer recruitment strategy. So the men and women who are volunteering will need material to guide them on the assistance they can provide. I certainly take the point that we do not want to see that money disbursed on government co-ordinators.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I thank the Premier. I am mightily reassured by what he has said. I am not asking for precision in this but, as a ballpark figure, are we anticipating that 50 per cent will go on services and 50 per cent will go on co-ordination?

Mr CARR: I have just been handed some information that might be of assistance. If I am interpreting this note correctly, the best estimate of what would be retained by the Cabinet Office in 1998-99 would be $0.7 million. The rest would be allocated to the Director-General of the Department of Community Services. I think I have finally given the honourable member the information she requires.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: We are getting closer.

Mr CARR: Dr Gellatly is insisting I point out that the $3.2 million includes the $1.1 million.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: So it is a $3.2 million program, not a $4.3 million program?

Mr CARR: Yes.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: What a shame. I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 51, subprogram 4.1.1, Services for the Governor’s Office, line item "Operating expenses - employee related". I note that there is a
Page 39
reduction in employee expenses of $140,000 compared to the 1997-98 budget figure. I also note that there is no reduction in the number of staff in the Governor’s Office. Have they taken a pay cut, or how will you achieve these savings?

Mr CARR: I seek the assistance of Dr Gellatly.

Dr GELLATLY: The figures in the budget papers are for average staffing over the year because there can be vacancies and turnovers throughout the year. The fact that there is a reduction in the employer-related expenses could be because of that but also because of the changes in grades and the staffing profile in the Governor’s Office. So there would be the same average number of staff over the whole year. We could have a fall in expenses that are outlaid on employees.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Given that your effective full-time staffing level is the same, on what basis have you decided it will cost less? How can you make that determination?

Dr GELLATLY: Because a senior person is retiring in the coming year and, therefore, there will be some restructuring within the office, which will lower the grading of the staffing profile and reduce costs.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Has anyone in the Premier’s Office determined the approximate cost of forgone rents - rent to the Government created by the Governor occupying the Chief Secretary’s Office?

Mr CARR: I know quite well the offices used by the Governor, the former Sir Henry Parkes Office and the old Cabinet room. Given their heritage component, I do not think they would lend themselves to any rental use. Their former use was as an office for the former Chief Justice Sir Laurence Street, that is, after he had served as Chief Justice, but the rest of it was vacant. Before Sir Laurence used it, it had been vacant. Those offices would not lend themselves to a commercial rental. You could not retain their heritage quality and rent them out. Part of their appeal is the nineteenth century furnishings - the recollection evoked by the Parkes era. They really have to be used for government purposes. I could not see a purpose for that space unless it was for government use.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 123, subprogram 13.1.1, Historic Houses Trust, line item "Operating expenses". What is the contribution of the Historic Houses Trust towards the cost of administering Government House? It may be of assistance for me to tell you that I am actually - I suppose quite obviously - trying to deduce the total cost. I am working towards the total cost of administering Government House.
Page 40

Mr CARR: According to the 1995-96 budget papers, there was an outlay of $2.433 million to support the Governor in residence at Government House. In the budget papers for the 1997-98 financial year the costs of the Governor’s Office are estimated at $1.319. The variation between the two years is a reduction of more than $1.1 million. The reduction is, in fact, even bigger when account is taken of office rental distortion of nearly $300,000. That is a book entry for the Chief Secretary’s building when no comparable office rental figure for Government House was reflected in the 1995-96 budget papers. The office of Governor has not been downgraded. Although Government House has become an historic houses museum, the Governor has first use of that residence. Indeed, I have just come from Government House, where the Governor is officiating at the swearing in of a new lieutenant governor. Since March 1996, 280,000 people have visited Government House and in the current financial year attendance figures have risen to more than 140,000.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: My question referred to the Historic Houses Trust contributions.

Mr CARR: I will have to take that question on notice.

[Time expired.]

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: At last year’s estimates committees the Premier referred to the role of the Strategic Projects Division of the Premier’s Department in the development of a proposal to rename the Glebe Island Bridge. Has this worthwhile proposal been advanced, is the department still involved and what has been the response of the Returned Services League?

Mr CARR: I reported to the Committee last year that the Government wanted to embark on a process of consultation with the Returned Services League. I did not want to rename the bridge Anzac Bridge if it did not accord with the wishes of veterans and the spirit of their organisation. I said last year that the idea of young people travelling over the bridge in the back seat of their parent’s car and asking mum and dad what the term "Anzac" meant appealed to me as a way of educating a younger generation in an important component of Australian patriotism. The bridge, a gateway to the Olympic Games site and western Sydney, will be crossed by many people.

The RSL, to its great credit, quickly put the proposal to its members over a matter of months. I report to the Committee that a letter sent to me by Rusty Priest, the State RSL President, indicated general support for the proposal. The members also made the very valuable point of the Anzac tradition, which I respect, and said that the bridge should not be used for advertising. Rather, the bridge should be regarded as a monument, with which I agree completely. I also report to the Committee that I have written to the Federal Minister for Veteran Affairs, who is required to approve the use of the name "Anzac" in any context. Rusty Priest has also written to the Minister to indicate the RSL’s support for this proposal. As a result, I am optimistic that this historic and important change can take place in the next few months. Once the Federal Minister replies, the Roads and Traffic Authority will notify the Geographical Names Board, and after a one-month wait to comply with the board’s regulations the bridge will be renamed.

This great idea was proposed to me by a member of the public when I was being interviewed on Radio 2UE, which is figuring large in the questioning today - indeed it was the same program. After a year of consultation to get the process right, we are one step away from realising this unknown person’s proposal and one step away from securing a modern-day monument to the Anzac tradition.

The Hon P. T. PRIMROSE: I ask the Premier a question about the relocation of government jobs to rural New South Wales. The Premier made a commitment to the 1997 Country Summit that government jobs would be transferred out of Sydney to regional New South Wales. What progress has been made in meeting this commitment, and where are the jobs being located?

Mr CARR: Specifically, the Government has identified 241 Department of Lands and Water Conservation jobs for relocation to the country, a move that will be completed by the end of this year, in addition to 286 new government jobs created for country New South Wales over the past year. That is on top of the 214 Department of Agriculture and Rural Assistance Authority jobs relocated in the previous year. The Hon. P. T. Primrose asked to which areas those Department of Land and Water Conservation positions would be allocated. Newcastle will receive 91 positions, Dubbo 29, Armidale 16, Tamworth 15, Wagga Wagga 15 and Bathurst 10. Other developments on this front have occurred during the past year, which include the establishment of the Aboriginal Heritage Division of the National Parks and Wildlife Service at Dubbo, with 32 positions, and the creation of 65 new positions for the Department of Corrective Services, including 23 in Bathurst, 16 in Bourke and 15 in Cessnock.

As I always say when the issue of regional
Page 41
development is raised, the private sector will generate the jobs that transform the economy of rural New South Wales. The government sector is not big enough and is not growing, and will not be able to bring about the major enhancements we want. This Government will move to introduce special legislation such as that passed to facilitate the Cadia goldmine in Orange - $440 million invested in the central west and the creation of hundreds of jobs - the Visy Industries Pulp and Paper Mill at Tumut and the Bengalla mine in the Hunter Valley. In those three projects the Government granted development approval to major job-generating private sector investments in the country. Where we can help with government jobs, the facts that I put before the Committee demonstrate that we will so move.

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: At Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 57, funds are provided to support the Public Sector Management Office. Will the Premier advise the Committee how these funds have been utilised to improve job opportunities for young people in the State public sector?

Mr CARR: A group called YouthForce was set up in December 1996 to look for innovative ideas to provide assistance for the problem of chronically high levels of youth unemployment. A report brought down paid particular attention to approaches that could provide support and assistance to disadvantaged youth and included five major strategies which aim to enable young people to achieve employment goals and become active citizens. Those strategies that relate to the public sector are worthy of note. The working party focused its attention on improving job opportunities for young people within the government sector and on improving the success rate of young people in being selected for vacant government positions. A toll-free telephone number for the Government’s Jobline service was set up towards the end of last year, informing callers about employment and training opportunities within the government sector. Internet access was provided for people suitably skilled, and access could also be gained through one of the regional Government Access Centres or a local council library connected to New South Wales Net.

The working party released a brochure entitled "Young and Looking for Work? New South Wales Public Sector Opportunities", which provided general information on the type of entry level job opportunities available, such as clerical and administrative positions and traineeships. The Public Sector Management Office in the Premier’s Department and the Department of Education and Training are working together to facilitate the employment of apprentices and trainees. The Department of Education and Training recently secured a tender from the Commonwealth Government enhancing funding for entry level training. The department’s Industry Training Services centres will assist and advise departments and agencies in the employment of apprentices and trainees. Those centres operate from 11 locations in the State and provide a range of services, including advice on apprenticeships and traineeships, registration requirements and options for traineeship training.

In those cases in which individual departments are not able to fully employ and manage their own apprentices and trainees, the Department of Education and Training is available to facilitate arrangements on their behalf through group training companies that will act as the employer and place apprentices and trainees in a range of departments and agencies. In New South Wales public agencies, 599 young people are currently undertaking traineeships. Of these, 166 are employed by the Department of Housing. In addition, the Health Industry Group Training Company has 158 trainees, of whom 81 are Aboriginal. The successful implementation of these and other initiatives will push to the maximum job opportunities for the young in the New South Wales public sector.

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: Good progress.

The Hon P. T. PRIMROSE: Premier, I have a question about child care. I refer to subprogram 4.1.4 detailed on page 54 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1. What measures have the Government and the Premier’s Department taken to provide child-care facilities for public sector staff?

Mr CARR: I am pleased to say that my department has seen child care as an important issue for public sector employment. In July 1997 I directed that the Premier’s Department assume responsibility for co-ordinating establishment of a child-care centre in the Sydney central business district. A unique opportunity arose for the Government to establish a sponsored long day care centre in the Sydney CBD. This followed the closure of a private centre in June 1997 and the swift action by the Office of the Director of Equal Opportunity in Public Employment has now allowed for a centre to operate.

The Nambaree Child Centre in Margaret Street, Sydney opened on 9 March this year as a New South Wales public sector employer-sponsored long day child care centre. The premises have been leased by my department for four years and refurbished to meet Department of Community Services standards. The centre has been licensed by
Page 42
the department to provide places for 42 children. The Lady Gowrie Child Centre, a highly experienced provider of quality children’s services, has been contracted to manage the centre. All public sector agencies with offices in the Sydney CBD have been invited to subscribe to sponsorship of the centre and to promote the services to their staff. Sixteen have agreed to be sponsors on behalf of their employees.

Through provision of this new child-care service for very young children, the Government has demonstrated its commitment on this issue. We revised employer-sponsored child-care policy and guidelines for the public sector in July 1997. I point out that one of the many social justice initiatives announced in the 1998-99 budget was a $33 million package for child care. It includes a range of initiatives such as, $5.5 million to create 700 places for children under three, $9.5 million to create more than 1,500 new pre-school and occasional care places, $3 million to create innovative service responses to rural New South Wales, and more than $2 million to enable access to child care to children at risk and to improve access to services for children with a disability or from a non-English speaking background and Aboriginal children.

This makes a vivid contrast with the Commonwealth Government cuts to child care. As you would be aware, it slashed $298 million from child-care funding in this State. From 1 July last year the Federal Government stopped funding operational subsidies to community-based long day care. From 1 January this year operational funds for outside-school-hours services and vacation care were abolished. Child care assistance rates have been frozen. On 28 October the Council of Social Service of New South Wales ran a child-care hotline. Additionally, a series of focus groups were conducted throughout New South Wales to highlight the problem of the cuts in child-care funding from Canberra. The material we obtained from those sources has been made public, and it makes distressing reading.

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1 at page 40 under subprogram 2.1.1, refers to funding for other services within "Services for the Premier and Cabinet". This includes a funding component for New South Wales Government youth initiatives. Can you say why this allocation increased from $206,000 in 1997-98 to more than $1.3 million in 1998-99?

Mr CARR: We are talking about the Families First initiative, some aspects of which the Hon. Virginia Chadwick asked about. The data that led us to set up the scheme highlighted the fact that money spent on family support saved money that would be required for health, police and other services years down the track.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I agree. Consultants do not save money, though, Premier.

Mr CARR: It will not be wasted on consultants; it will be used to set up practical programs.

CHAIR: It is not the turn of the Hon. Virginia Chadwick to ask questions.

Mr CARR: Infant and parent health services from skilled nurses will be available from before the birth of the baby. Practical advice and help in the home will be available from experienced volunteer parents. I touched on that a moment ago. Early intervention and support from professional multidisciplinary teams will be available. Family friendly communities will be built through local development programs in seriously disadvantaged areas. Some of these services are currently available in some parts of New South Wales. Families First will build on existing services to provide comprehensive coverage across the three areas. This will mean that the four levels are linked to provide a strong network of support for the families in our community. The success of the strategy depends on careful planning and close consultation with local communities.

The first year of Families First will be allocated to planning and setting up the systems. For further details I refer you to my earlier answer. Funds for providing new services and expanding existing ones will be available through the departments of community services and health from 1999-2000. I should point out that over the next four years the Government is committed to spending more than $19 million on this very practical form of support to families. We recognise the importance of families learning from and helping each other and drawing on the wealth of skills in the community; intervening early before problems become acute; co-ordinating the programs of various departments and therefore spending money more efficiently, where parents want it; basing services at a community level, which puts the sinews back into the community; training programs for paid and volunteer workers in the services; and government working in partnership with communities to strengthen traditional community networks that have been under strain.

The Hon P. T. PRIMROSE: What has the Government done to assist young and disadvantaged sports people in the Aboriginal community?

Page 43

Mr CARR: We are proud of the support and assistance we have been able to provide to keen and talented young people in the Aboriginal community. We believe that this is practical. It provides role models for young Aboriginal people from disadvantaged backgrounds. There is a lot of value in supporting young Aboriginal people with talent in their search for sporting success. It is happening through the fantastic efforts of the great former Parramatta Eels full-back David Liddiard and his team at the National Aboriginal Sports Corporation Australia or NASCA. Its great work is being bolstered by a commitment from my Government that is both financial and practical.

Each year we give $50,000 towards the running costs of the corporation. This assists David and his team to meet the daily demands of managing the sports initiatives that directly benefit out State’s youth. This has helped NASCA achieve its aim of introducing Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children to sport, identifying talented young people among them, and fostering their development. NASCA also provides mentoring programs, training and employment opportunities to our disadvantaged indigenous youth. Through NASCA my Government is helping those who would otherwise miss out on the opportunities that flow from their natural talents. We are giving young people an often badly needed boost. It has a flagship program "Hunting for the Australian Tiger", which is named after the famous United States golfer Tiger Woods. It has already identified more than a 100 potential golfing champions. The initiative aims to promote the talents and the careers of young Aboriginal golfers.

The Government is committed to this initiative, which is already bearing fruit. The Australian Tiger program is one of NASCA’s mainstream sports development activities. Under this program it has golfing workshops and competitions in centres of Aboriginal population with local golf professionals, celebrities and sponsor guests; placing young Aboriginal golfers as sports trainees with golfing clubs; providing sports development scholarships to golfers with outstanding potential; and supporting sports trainees with personal mentors drawn from the membership of the Professional Golfers Association. I should mention the names of two Aboriginal youngsters who might be among our future golfing greats: Michael Williams, who is undertaking a traineeship with the New South Wales Golfing Club in La Perouse and Nick Carter, a trainee at the Mt Broughton Golf Club at Bowral. Michael was actually invited to participate in the Greg Norman Golf Classic Pro-Am competition where he partnered Steve Elkington, who is one of Australia’s world-renowned golf champions. There are other successes in other sports. Natalie Foster has been asked to trial for the under 19 State netball team, and there is the annual State of Origin netball series between New South Wales and Queensland, which provides a great opportunity for young Aboriginal women. Also, Nathan Blacklock, who was a NASCA trainee for 12 months while playing for the St George Dragons, was also a member of the all-Aboriginal touring rugby league side to the United Kingdom.

These are very impressive sportsmen and sportswomen with potentially very great futures. We can be proud of what they have achieved. This is as practical a contribution to the self-esteem of Aboriginal people as any other program that can be nominated. The NASCA board receives direct funding from the Government and consists of some of Australia’s best-known indigenous sports stars. These include Michael O’Loughlin from the Sydney Swans, Cliff Lyons from Manly rugby league and Sharon Finnan, OAM, who is an international netballer. Through NASCA and David Liddiard’s team the Government has placed a firm stake in the future of our young Aboriginal athletes. It is a good
Page 44
investment.

The Hon. Virginia Chadwick: On a point of information. Although I am extremely interested in the Premier’s answer to my colleague’s questions, I am a little confused. Will the Premier advise me of the relevant line item?

Mr CARR: The line item is the strategic projects division of the Premier’s Department because it has been working with the relevant agencies to enable the achievements I have mentioned.

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: Are services being provided to community legal centres to adequately meet the needs of people from non-English speaking backgrounds using these centres?

Mr CARR: The New South Wales Government is committed to ensuring that the people of New South Wales have adequate access to appropriate language services so that they can be full participants in fair and just processes. Community legal centres provide access to legal services for disadvantaged people throughout New South Wales, including Lismore, Armidale, the Hunter, the central coast, the Blue Mountains and Illawarra, as well as in the inner city, eastern, western and southern suburbs of Sydney. For a number of years community legal centres have received free interpreting services from the commission.

In 1997-98 the Ethnic Affairs Commission reviewed its exemption policy regarding the non-provision of interpreters for Federal matters. This initially caused some difficulties for community legal centres due to the fact that the legal jurisdiction of a matter may be unclear until it has been clarified in an interview with a solicitor. The Government decided to extend free interpreter services to community legal centres for preliminary interviews to determine jurisdiction and for matters where jurisdictions overlap. For example, this happens with family breakdown when divorce proceedings are intertwined with incidents of domestic violence. While divorce falls within the Federal jurisdiction, domestic violence falls within State jurisdiction.

Currently approximately 20 per cent of services provided to legal centres are for domestic violence matters and an additional 22 per cent of services are where jurisdictions overlap, primarily family law, domestic violence and custody of children. Other matters for which services are often provided include debt, victims compensation, discrimination, unfair dismissal, motor vehicle issues, professional negligence and neighbourhood disputes. The language services provided by community legal centres are critical in ensuring that community legal centres can provide advice to people of non-English speaking backgrounds.

Clearly the Government’s approach has increased access to legal advice for non-English speaking background people, male and female alike. This ensures the equal participation of people in the legal processes. The Government is committed to continuing to provide free interpreting services to community legal centres. This year the Government provided approximately $140,000 in interpreter services to the combined legal centres. I emphasise that the financial responsibility for the provision of services for Federal matters rests with the Federal Government. The Howard Government has systematically reduced the accessibility and affordability of services to people from non-English speaking backgrounds. An example is the reduction in English language classes, employment-related services and the Telephone Interpreter Service - TIS. The New South Wales Government has raised the issue of adequate provision of funds at the recent conference of Ministers whose portfolios include multicultural affairs and Attorneys-General.

The Hon P. T. PRIMROSE: Will the Premier tell the Committee how the Ethnic Affairs Commission’s community partnership scheme assists young people from ethnic communities?

Mr CARR: The community partnership scheme is a funding program that allows the Government to respond to emerging or important social issues that affect communities. The projects are intended to serve as best-practice models for other government agencies. In 1996-97, of the five projects funded under the scheme, two targeted the needs of young people from ethnic communities. Tonight I announce that the Ethnic Affairs Commission will fund a $100,000 project that targets young people from ethnic communities in the Wetherill Park area in Sydney’s west. The project is entitled "Youth Matters" and will focus on the use of public space by young people at the Stockland shopping mall at Wetherill Park. Although it is a popular gathering place for young people, it is sometimes regarded as a problem for merchants and shoppers.

Large groups of young people with nothing to do represent a disturbing presence to some. Older people in particular feel intimidated. Sometimes there are confrontations between young people and the mall security staff. Therefore, this is a real issue for a region that has one of the highest concentrations of people aged 15 to 24. This age group’s shopping bill has been estimated at $4 billion a year nationwide. This spending power is
Page 45
making developers take notice of the needs of young people in shopping malls. I recently opened the Broadway shopping complex in Ultimo, which is a showcase development in a central city location. Young people were given a say on what they wanted in the centre. As a result the place is more attractive and safer for everyone to use, including older people who live in the adjacent Glebe estate and with whom I chatted when I was there.

For example, more than $5 million has been spent by the developers on building basketball courts, providing an auditorium and employing a full-time youth worker to ensure young people are well catered for. This is about designing public spaces such as shopping centres to meet the needs of its users, to make them more attractive to business, to provide young people with a practical outlet within the boundaries of these shopping centres and, at the same time, to make older people feel comfortable and safe. The Wetherill Park project incorporates these ideas. Parks Community Network, a local community organisation, will be funded to co-ordinate a project to provide innovative alternative activities for young people visiting the mall.

The project will provide a computer technology centre in the local library. The network will work with young people to develop other activities and will work with mall security staff to ensure that the strategies used in dealing with young people are as co-operative as possible. The project is being undertaken at a time when the Stockland group and Hoyts are in the process of developing a 12-cinema complex within the Stockland mall area. This cinema complex will become a major focal point for the young and the Government wants to ensure that it works in a way that suits everyone in the community.

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: Premier, I refer to page 97 of Budget Paper No. 3, "Cultural Grants Program". This provides an allocation of $17.4 million, but there is no specific allocation in the budget papers for indigenous arts. Can you inform the Committee what the Government is doing in this area?

Mr CARR: We give high priority to indigenous arts. The allocation for specific indigenous projects and programs has risen from $213,000 in 1994 to close to $800,000 in 1998. That is a big increase. Tomorrow the winner of the 1998 Indigenous Arts Fellowship, valued at $15,000, will be announced. That fellowship was inaugurated by the Government and the City of Sydney Council, and is one of a range of Government initiatives for indigenous artists. In 1996 we funded the employment of a regional indigenous cultural officer based in the Casula Powerhouse. The officer has visited regions throughout the State. Also, we have an indigenous arts fund of $50,000 annually over three years for quick response grants of up to $5,000. Grants have been approved for projects involving indigenous artists and communities in a number of regions including Northern Rivers, Wingecarribee, Gunnedah, Newcastle and Wollongong. I am proud of the fact that the number of indigenous appointments to the boards and trusts of the State’s cultural institutions has increased from one to five while I have been Minister for the Arts.

In 1998 a New South Wales Indigenous History Fellowship will be offered for the first time. The award, valued at $20,000, is funded by the ministry. Our initiatives also cover capital development for indigenous organisations. Part of wharf 4-5 at Walsh Bay has been refurbished by the Government for the Bangarra Dance Theatre and Niki Nali Sound at a cost of $2.5 million. So Bangarra is now well set up with the opportunity to raise funds through commercial activity. The National Aboriginal and Islander Skills Development Association, which receives an annual grant of $80,000, has moved from The Rocks into new premises. An Indigenous Cultural Centre is being developed in the former Earth Exchange at The Rocks by the ministry. The building at The Rocks is valued at $5.6 million, and we have made a contribution of $400,000 to make good the structure. All these initiatives, I believe, underline our commitment to the importance of indigenous cultural practices. Together with what we are doing for young Aboriginal sports people, that is a very constructive contribution - low in political correctness, but full of practical importance.

[Time expired.]

CHAIR: Premier, I refer you to page 68 of Volume 1 of Budget Paper No. 3. I note that the increase in the budget for the Independent Commission Against Corruption is relatively small in view of inflation and other cost increases, such as wages. Is the increased budget adequate for the operations of ICAC?

Mr CARR: Funding for the Independent Commission Against Corruption has to be considered in conjunction with the establishment by this Government last year of the Police Integrity Commission. In response to the recommendations of the police royal commission we set up an altogether new body with a specific anti-corruption brief. Funding for ICAC must be seen in the light that when we set up the Police Integrity Commission we did not proportionately reduce the budget of ICAC;
Page 46
we effectively maintained ICAC funding. So there has been that change. Funding can fluctuate in accordance with the nature of investigations being carried out at any time by an investigative body.

If there was a time when the Independent Commission Against Corruption required additional funding to ensure that it could function at the level that the community expected of it, I would grant it an appropriate increase in its budget. I want to ensure that at all times we have an adequately funded ICAC. It is an interesting comparison to make. It occurred to me recently that Victoria has neither an Independent Commission Against Corruption nor a Police Integrity Commission. New South Wales has two permanent, properly funded anti-corruption bodies. The comparison is with Victoria, which has neither. I think that is a telling contrast.

CHAIR: There has been debate in the community about whether ICAC has been spending enough of its time on investigation as opposed to other commendable activities such as education; that is, whether it had become more of an educational body rather than a body investigating corruption. Is it possible to establish what percentage of the commission’s total budget is expended on investigation as distinct from what are its secondary areas of activity?

Mr CARR: That is a pertinent question, and I would be happy to take it on notice and provide the Committee with a comprehensive reply.

CHAIR: Still on page 68 of Volume 1 of Budget Paper No. 3: in relation to expenditure for 1997-98 as against the budget for 1998-99, there have been a number of challenges in the courts regarding ICAC matters. One that comes to mind involves Mr Gibson. Are the costs for ICAC’s legal representation included in its budget, or are such matters funded from the budget for the Attorney General? If costs are borne by ICAC, what were the costs?

Mr CARR: It would be out of ICAC’s budget.

CHAIR: Is there an estimate of what those legal costs have been?

Mr CARR: I will take that question on notice and undertake to give a response.

CHAIR: I refer to page 84 of Volume 1 of Budget Paper No. 3 and the budget for the State Electoral Office. There is a large increase in the budget, noted at page 79, for the forthcoming State elections of nearly $33 million. Is there any breakdown on what that expenditure covers? I am aware that elections cost a large amount of money, but $33 million seems to be a large sum. Could you provide a breakdown of that expenditure on the State elections?

Mr CARR: I would be happy to take that question on notice and provide you with a breakdown that spells out the different categories of expenditure.

CHAIR: At page 84 there is a line item "Registration of parties, groups and candidates, examination and research into claims", et cetera. There has been some reporting of the investigation of parties to ascertain whether they have fulfilled correct registration requirements. Do you have any information on which parties have been investigated and which parties, if any, have been deregistered following investigation? Obviously this would relate to minor parties.

Mr CARR: We will undertake that fascinating exercise and report back to the Committee.

CHAIR: The next question relates to page 84 and the line item "Payments to candidates, groups and parties". I note that the budget for 1997-98 was $565,000. Usually, the budget is exceeded. In this instance only half of the budget was spent. Is there any explanation as to why payments were less than those budgeted for?

Mr CARR: No, I do not have that information.

CHAIR: I note that a large amount of money has been budgeted for 1998-99, taking into account the forthcoming State election. I presume that the Electoral Office in its budget has to estimate payments to be made, particularly to the major parties. Are figures available as to the estimated or anticipated breakdown of the funding payments to the three major parties - that is, the Liberal Party, the National Party and the Labor Party?

Mr CARR: I have not been supplied with that breakdown by the Electoral Office.

Page 47

CHAIR: Could you take the questions on which you have not been able to provide information on notice?

Mr CARR: Yes.

CHAIR: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 74, Agency 6, Ombudsman’s Office. I note that on some occasions the office finalises more complaints than it receives. What is the explanation for that? For example, in 1996-97, 5,232 complaints were received and 5,283 were finalised. It may be a flow-on from the previous year or something of that nature.

Mr CARR: I would suggest that that is the case. I will determine whether we have information from the Ombudsman that will enable me to confirm that. Again, we should take that question on notice.

CHAIR: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 74, subprogram 6.1.1, Resolution of Complaints About Police. In 1997-98, 5,130 written complaints were received and audits were commenced. The estimated figure of 5,100 for the period 1998-99 is lower. What is the explanation for that? With more police, would not the figure be similar? If they anticipate a reduction in the number of complaints, perhaps the education program and other things are working.

Mr CARR: Almost certainly, the explanation would be a reflection of the establishment of the Police Integrity Commission. I will see if I can give you further information about police complaints. The Ombudsman estimates that fewer complaints will be finalised this year than last year, which is partly attributable to the disruption of the police complaints system associated with the restructure of the Police Service in the months following 1 July 1997 but partly due also to the establishment of the Police Integrity Commission. The figure in the budget papers of 4,900 was based on the number of finalised matters as at March 1998 projected to year’s end. However, since that time, more complaints than anticipated have been finalised. The revised figure is about 5,300.

Complaint levels based on a projection of complaints received as at the end of March 1998 show a decrease of just under 2 per cent from the 1996-97 level. Complaints since March have been in excess of the normal monthly levels, which will bring the total complaints received and audits commenced to approximately 5,350, representing an increase of 2.25 per cent. Regarding your question about police complaints, in the 1996-97 financial year the Ombudsman signed a class and kind agreement with the Commission of Police. Under this agreement minor internal matters need not be reported to the Ombudsman. However, the Ombudsman will conduct an audit of how the Police Service deals with those matters.

CHAIR: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 62, subprogram 4.1.8 State Administration Services, "Other Expenses". I note that the Australia Day Council’s budget has increased by almost 100 per cent. What will the Australia Day Council be doing?

Mr CARR: It is the first funding for planning towards the celebration of the centenary of Australian Federation. The Government is planning activities to commemorate that centenary in New South Wales and has increased the funding to the council to enable it to move ahead and do that. The Commonwealth Government has established the national Centenary of Federation Council to coordinate celebrations and commemorations. We have a co-operative working relationship with the national body and we need to keep pace with what it is planning. We are represented on the Federal council by the Hon. Rodney Cavalier, who is also its deputy chair. The Australia Day Council has now had years of experience in conducting and co-ordinating Australia Day celebrations. Indeed I think it is the view of participants that it has improved and become more effective in recent years, which will lead to a very worthy celebration in the Centenary of Federation in late 2000-early 2001.

CHAIR: Are specific plans yet available, or are they still at the planning stage?

Mr CARR: They are still at the planning stage. They will occupy an important and rather challenging place, coming, as they will, so soon after the great celebration of the Olympics. They will involve Centennial Park, because it was there that the Commonwealth of Australia was proclaimed on 1 January 1901, with the first Governor General and representatives of all the Australian colonies at that point becoming Australian States. The idea of a procession through the city to Centennial Park, parallelling the great procession of New Year’s Day 1901, would be one of the specifics being planned. All the accounts I have read about the procession - for example, in Gavin Souter’s memorable book Lion and kangaroo: the initiation of Australia, 1901-1919, which is about the Federation era - make the point that the city was buoyed by it. I think the ceremony will provide a challenge to do something that will evoke the enthusiasm of Australians of a century ago as their nation was created here in Sydney.

CHAIR: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 62. It states that the Nader inquiry cost $207,000. Is a breakdown of that cost available,
Page 48
including the costs of the commissioner, the judicial officer and legal expenses incurred?

Mr CARR: Yes, the 1997-98 revised budget estimate was $160,000. The 1997-98 end-of-year projection was $207,000. These are the costs borne by the Premier’s administration and they do not reflect the total cost of the inquiry. A court complex was established in disused premises in Hospital Road which were formerly part of the District Court complex. This amount reflects the cost of setting up, that is opening, as well as the sheriff’s costs and the salary of the commissioner. They do not take account of the legal fees, which you would find reflected in the Attorney’s budget.

CHAIR: I refer to an earlier question about Government House. I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, line item "Maintenance". As you are probably aware there have been discussions in the media about whether the next Governor could return to live in Government House. Are the quarters for the Governor maintained in the budget to allow that flexibility, or would he have to live in the back annex or somewhere else?

Mr CARR: From my knowledge of the building, if a future government wanted to end its purpose as a house museum administered by the Historic Houses Trust, no structural alteration would prevent it from doing that. It would involve closing off public access that has been enjoyed by more than a quarter of a million people. It would also mean closing off the grounds that have been a very significant addition to Sydney parklands. No structural alteration has been made. Indeed, there is high praise by all concerned for the care the Historic Houses Trust has taken.

CHAIR: My question is whether the first floor, which I have never seen but I assume has accommodation for the Governor, has been maintained as accommodation.

Mr CARR: No.

CHAIR: The bedrooms, et cetera, have not been maintained?

Mr CARR: No. It has been used as an art gallery, but there have been no structural alterations. Bathrooms, to my knowledge, have not been removed. If someone wanted to end its use as an historic house museum there would be no impediment to putting the furniture back in.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 59, subprogram 4.1.7. Can you indicate whether your department has employed the consultancy firm Hawker Britton Pty Ltd to undertake any work in the past 12 months?

Mr CARR: Not that I am aware of. Dr Gellatly confirms that.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I return to my previous question on the electricity report. You indicated that you had not yet received the report we were discussing.

Mr CARR: Yes.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Have you received a draft report, and has it been circulated to any government electricity corporations?

Mr CARR: I certainly have not seen it. Roger Wilkins, the head of the Cabinet Office, says he has not seen it.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I turn to the Council on the Cost of Government and I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 53, subprogram 4.1.3. What efficiency saving impact has the Government’s policy of no forced redundancies had upon the ability of the public sector to achieve savings?

Mr CARR: I confirm that our policy is one of no forced redundancies. That is not a departure from the policy of Mr Fahey, although I think it is a departure from the policy of Mr Greiner. Achieving efficiencies through redeployment has been a feature of our approach. There is a policy for managing displaced employees, which is probably relevant to your question as well.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: In the same subprogram, given the entire charter and purpose of the Council on the Cost of Government, what savings are identified within the current budget?

Mr CARR: Information about the work on the Council on the Cost of Government and its effectiveness in assisting the streamlining of government would be highlighted in the annual report, which is made to Parliament.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: There appear to be no savings identified in 1998-99. Why is this so?

Dr GELLATLY: The council has identified areas for potential savings of up to $300 million. It is currently in negotiations with the Public Service Association. The current pay dispute is about achieving some real savings in the areas identified by the council. A corporate services reform team has
Page 49
been set up in the Premier’s Department precisely for that purpose. I could go through the different areas of those reforms, but real savings are being achieved. Last year’s budget paper reveals corporate services savings and service competition policy savings factored into the budget. From memory it was $27 million for corporate services and a similar amount for the service competition policy. Those areas in corporate services are a direct result of the work of the Council on the Cost of Government.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I again refer to the same subprogram. I recall that when the council first reported to Parliament in June 1996 it was critical of a 19 per cent increase in the cost of providing public services in New South Wales between 1987-88 and 1994-95. Given that the total current outlays have increased by almost 20.6 per cent over the period 1994-95 to 1998-99 would you really regard the Council on the Cost of Government as successful?

Mr CARR: I would regard it as a marked success. The council was established in October 1995. Other Australian Governments resorted to short-term commissions of audit. The Curran commission was set up in New South Wales in 1988 by the Greiner Government. This is a different approach. We have a standing commission of audit. The council has reported to Parliament four times. Its work has highlighted the very poor quality of the management information system the Government inherited. With the active involvement of private sector members largely representative of the accountancy profession, it has advanced a vision to enable the New South Wales public sector to introduce financial management systems comparable to the best within the Australian commercial sector.

The council has reported the results from its major survey of corporate services, it has outlined initiatives for reforming the delivery of corporate services, it has reviewed property utilisation in the health portfolio, and it has produced a list of surplus and readily available properties worth at least $50 million. A similar review is currently being undertaken in TAFE, the Department of Land and Water Conservation, and the Department of Public Works and Services. We believe this is likely to release upwards of $50 million in surplus property. Further work is being undertaken to confirm the figure and to declare this property surplus for sale. The Government has issued the new service competition guidelines, which the council helped to develop. Service competition guidelines emphasise pursuit of best value for money for the most appropriate means rather than contracting per se.

The implementation of the new service competition policy is monitored by the council. The council has developed a methodology to undertake reviews of agencies, programs or activities. That methodology is systematic, vigorous and procedurally fair. It has been used to carry out three major management reviews involving WorkCover, the Police Service and the Department of Community Services. Other reviews undertaken include the TAB excursion into Hungarian betting, which is something the Labor Government inherited, the Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages, police training, information technology and telecommunications management, central agency reporting requirements, programs for Aboriginal people, metropolitan laboratories, and the establishment of the central corporate services unit.

At the request of the Cabinet budget committee the council set up a system of program reviews that will cover all major government programs over a five-year period. Reports on three major programs - public sector management office, population health and metropolitan planning - have been provided to the budget committee. The council has established a set of performance measures known as service efforts and accomplishment, or SEA indicators, to assess the costs and benefits of government initiatives within broad policy areas. This initiative, which is unique for Australian governments, will enable the Government of New South Wales to account for its delivery of public services more effectively and in greater detail than previously. A number of SEA reports have been released, and the remainder are due to be released shortly. Data compiled from these reports were used in the 1998-99 budget.

In conclusion, the council is currently pursuing
Page 50
a range of projects, including simplification and standardisation of financial management policies and the design of a minimum standard chart of accounts to ensure that the Government is better informed about agency expenditures. I simply underline that the approach of coalition governments around Australia has been, on their election, to set up a short-lived commission of audit. A three-volume report is received and something may or may not follow that commission of audit. We wanted to go beyond that approach and establish a streamlined, economical, continuing body to monitor and review. I was impressed by the quality of the private sector accountancy talent that was recruited to the council.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I return to the first question I asked in relation to former staff of former Minister Dyer. Is Ms Dertimanis still in the employ of the Premier’s Department?

Mr CARR: The answer is no.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Is that because of legal action, threatened or pending, against the Premier?

Mr CARR: Against me?

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: For comments on the Alan Jones program?

Mr CARR: I am normally apprised of any legal action against me. I certainly have not been apprised of that.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Is the Premier in a position to indicate the terms of her dismissal or resignation?

Mr CARR: I could do that, yes. I will take that question on notice. Dr Gellatly made a cautionary noise as I gave that answer.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: No, I would prefer your answer, Premier.

Mr CARR: Dr Gellatly alerts me to considerations of confidentiality. Dependent as I am on his advice, I qualify my previous answer.

CHAIR: Subject to legal advice?

Mr CARR: Yes, subject to legal advice. That is all I am saying.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: So if there was no legal action it is hard to imagine why you would need legal advice.

Mr CARR: That is not right. Let me make it clear. I am normally alerted if someone is suing me. It normally comes to my attention, not least because, given my nature and the business I am in, I am likely to plough ahead and recommit the defamation. But my best advice is that this person has not sued me. So the only legal restraint would be the normal consideration of confidentiality for public sector employees. That would be the only restraint here.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 97, subprogram 9.1.1,
Page 51
Policy Formulation and Review, Cultural Grants Program and Other Arts Assistance. What is the explanation for the cut of $200,000 in the 1998-99 allocation to Sydney Festival Ltd? Which activities will be affected by this cut of $200,000? The budget papers show the revised figure of $1,620,000 for 1997-98 and $1,420,000 for 1998-99.

Mr CARR: I am advised by the Secretary of the Arts Ministry that it is a technical adjustment. I will ask Mr Williams to explain it in an accountancy context.

Mr WILLIAMS: The apparent reduction is the result of an advance made to meet the cash flows of the festival at the request of the festival director. He approached us seeking an advance of $100,000 from the festival’s grant in 1998-99 to assist in meeting cash flow difficulties. He also approached the other major sponsors and the city of Sydney. This has led to an apparent increase in the actual 1997-98 grant to $1.62 million, while the 1998-99 grant appears to have dropped by $100,000 to $1.42 million. In practice, this is simply a variation in the timing of the annual grant payment and it does not represent a cut in funding. The grant itself will return to the level of $1.52 million in 1999-2000.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: Are you saying that he got an extra $100,000?

Mr WILLIAMS: He got an advance against his grant for next year.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: To cover a particular grant?

Mr WILLIAMS: To cover a cash flow difficulty.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: Can you elaborate on the cash flow difficulty? There is a budget for $1,520,000 and he ended up with a cash flow difficulty, which cost an extra $100,000.

Mr WILLIAMS: It was a little more than that. He sought funding to meet that cash flow problem. In fact, there was a minimal operating deficit on the festival’s activities in 1998. I think the operating budget deficit was in the region of $35,000. However, when the funds were requested a larger deficit was anticipated. It was not required in any event, except to meet the cash flow problem, which was a temporary one.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 115, subprogram 12.1.1, Museum of Applied Arts and Sciences. Why has the allocation for employee-related operating expenses risen from $18.885 million in 1997-98 to $20.300 million in 1998-99 at the same time as the number of staff is estimated to decline from 381 to 365?

Mr CARR: The short and cheerful answer is I do not know. I will ask Mr Williams whether he can provide assistance or whether he suggests the question should be taken on notice.

Mr WILLIAMS: Could I ask for the page reference again?

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: The bottom of page 115, which shows a drop in average staffing from 381 to 365. Over the page the revised budget figure for employee-related operating expenses goes from $18,885,000 to $20,300,000, despite the fact that the number of employees has been reduced from 381 to 365. The operating expenses have increased by a significant figure, nearly $1.8 million.

Mr WILLIAMS: There is an explanation for that. I am advised that the increase is partly accounted for by a pay rise to employees and because some salaries in this instance were paid from the capital allocation to the museum. I will take the question on notice and provide the Committee with further detail.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: I refer to page 116. Why is revenue in the form of sales of goods and services expected to decline from $3,998,000 in 1997-98 to $3,208,000 in 1998-99 at the same time as the total paid exhibition visitors are predicted to increase?

Mr CARR: I am sure it would astonish you if I knew the answer to that!

Mr WILLIAMS: Which line of the budget papers is the Hon. J. M. Samios referring to?

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: I am referring to page 116, subprogram 12.1.1.1, Museum of Applied Arts and Sciences. Under Operating Statement, Retained Revenue, if all the figures from "Sales of goods and services" down to "Minor sales of goods and services" are added up, there is a total of $3,998,000 on one side and $3,208,000 on the other for the 1998-99 period.

Mr WILLIAMS: That page shows $3.911 million for total retained revenue compared with a projected $5.8 million in 1998-99.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: Why is the revenue for the sales of goods and services expected to decline? The addition of sales of goods and services - not investment income - comes to the two figures I have stated.

Mr WILLIAMS: I will take advice and advise the Committee.

Page 52

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: I ask the Premier: is the entry fee for the Powerhouse Museum expected to change in the period 1998-99?

Mr CARR: No.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: In relation to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 103, subprogram 10.1.1, State Library, what accounted for the decline in visitors to travelling exhibitions from 66,000 in 1996-97 to 15,000 in 1997-98? Why is no estimate provided for the number of visitors to travelling exhibitions for 1998-99? How will the travelling exhibition program for 1998-99 differ from that provided in 1997-98?

Mr CARR: I need to take those questions on notice.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: Which locations did travelling exhibitions visit in 1997-98 and which locations will they visit in 1998-99?

Mr CARR: I will provide that information to the Committee.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: In relation to the Ethnic Affairs Commission, I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 143, Operating Statement. The 1997-98 budget for net cost of services was $9,754,000 and the revised figure for that year is $10,417,000. Can the Premier account for the budget blow-out of $663,000?

Mr CARR: I will ask the Chairman of the Ethnic Affairs Commission to answer that.

Mr KERKYASHARIAN: There are a number of reasons for that additional figure, which includes a carry-over figure of approximately $200,000 from the grants program. Our grants program process is such that we may not be able to hand over the actual money in the financial year. In some cases, the time that we advertise for expressions of interest to the time that we can complete our assessment processes may extend over the 12-month fiscal period. So a carry-over figure of approximately $200,000 is included in that figure. There are also other reasons. Casual wage costs rose during the financial year, with an estimated increase of 5.6 per cent in 1998-99 because of the prescribed award provisions. They are the main reasons for the increase in the actual figures as against the budgeted figures.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: Given that the budget forecast for net cost of services for 1998-99 is $10,038,000, how can the Premier be confident that the blow-out will not occur again in 1998-99?

Mr CARR: I will ask Mr Kerkyasharian to address that.

Mr KERKYASHARIAN: I do not regard it as a blow-out. It is simply a carry-over of funds that were not expended in the previous year. We are confident that there will not be such a significant increase in the actual expenditure in that year.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 143, Operating Statement. The 1998-99 budget forecast for grants and subsidies shows $1,546,000. That is equal to the 1997-98 budget forecast for $216,000, but less than the revised budget for 1997-98. What were the additional grants and subsidies that accounted for the increase in the revised budget?

Mr CARR: I think we would be able to provide the Committee with a list of those if we take the question on notice. Mr Kerkyasharian will provide the Committee with a list of those grants.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: Have applications to the commission for grants and subsidies increased?

Mr KERKYASHARIAN: I do not have the exact figures with me. We can take the question on notice. Speaking from memory, there has been no significant increase in the number of applications for our community development program.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: Could you please outline which groups have had their applications for grants and subsidies rejected by the commission, in general terms?

Mr CARR: Could you give us some time to consider that? I do not want to embarrass any of the groups that made unsuccessful applications. I will consider that, Mr Chairman.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 144, Cash Flow Statement. Can you please explain the $123,000 reduction in recurrent appropriation under Cash Flows From Government? Recurrent appropriation has a revised figure of $9,167,000 and the 1998-99 figure is $8,955,000.

Mr CARR: We will take that on notice.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 147, Services for Ethnic Communities, 17.1.1, Community Support Services. On average staffing for 1998-99, I note that Carnivale has been moved to the Ministry for
Page 53
the Arts and the two employment positions previously allocated to Carnivale have disappeared from the Ethnic Affairs Commission because they are now part of the Ministry for the Arts. However, I note that only one of those employment positions will be retained under the Ministry for the Arts. Why has the Government abolished half the staffing allocation for Carnivale?

Mr CARR: Carnivale will have a staff of three, I am advised.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: In the Ministry for the Arts?

Mr WILLIAMS: Carnivale is an independent organisation. It receives direct line funding through the Ministry of $555,000 a year, and $55,000 of that was an additional grant which we provided to enable Carnivale to employ a general manager. That position has been advertised and filled. We are not responsible for any other funding of Carnivale through the Ministry or for its staffing. Staffing is purely an internal arrangement of that organisation.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, 17.1.1, Community Support Services. I refer to the employee-related expenses in the operating statement. Given that there will be two fewer jobs in the Ethnic Affairs Commission, can the Premier please explain the $410,000 increase in the 1998-99 budget for employee-related expenses? They go from $3,727,000 to $4,180,000.

Mr CARR: In 1998-99, full-time and casual wage costs are projected to increase by 5.06 per cent over a period of 12 months due to increases prescribed through award provisions. Increases in direct salary costs of course flow on to accrued leave liability such as recreation leave and extended leave. The increase in these accruals is therefore accounted for in the current financial year. Payroll tax will increase to 7 per cent in the 1998-99 financial year, as well as superannuation. These increases apply to the staff working within this program. The commission chose to fill a specialist information technology position for eight months in the 1997-98 year by way of contracting out, resulting in a corresponding reduction in employee-related costs for that period and a corresponding increase in operating costs for the same period. The commission did not fill the position of community outreach co-ordinator in 1997-98, nor was funding for the rural strategy reflected in that year. There is uncertainty about whether that position will be filled in the ensuing period.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: I refer to subprogram 17.1.1 on page 148 under the heading Community Support Services. The 1997-98 budget for the minor sale of goods and services was $14,000 and the revised budget for the period is $87,000. Can the Premier please outline what sales were made in 1997-98 that were not budgeted for? The 1998-99 budget for the minor sale of goods and services is $73,000. Can the Premier outline how this figure was reached?

Mr CARR: Mr Kerkyasharian can shed some light on that.

Mr KERKYASHARIAN: That includes the revenue that was generated by the luncheon that was given by the Ethnic Affairs Commission to commemorate the twentieth anniversary of the commission and to have the inaugural ethnic affairs oration. With the exception of a very few guests, all the attendees paid. That figure reflects some of the revenue that was generated in that process. We anticipate that we will have similar overwhelming support this year.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: Was that the function at the Rydge’s Sheraton?

Mr KERKYASHARIAN: Yes, I think that was the one Mr Samios was present at.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: Yes. I refer to Interpreting and Translating Services, 17.1.2, on page 149. Can the Premier advise the Committee why there are 13 fewer languages provided by interpreting and translating services than in 1996? Which languages were abolished in 1997 and why have they not been reinstated for 1998-99?

Mr KERKYASHARIAN: We reviewed the operations of our interpreting services. A number of dialects were classified as languages and we reclassified them. It is a matter of reclassification rather than abolition. We still provide the services.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 141, program 16.1 New South Wales Film and Television Office. What accounts for a $355,000 increase in the allocation for employee-related operating expenses when the number of employees has remained stable at 18? Why is the value of cash assets in the statement of financial position on page 140 predicted to decline from $7,527,000 in 1997-98 to $4,836,000 in 1998-99, a drop of about $3 million?

Mr CARR: I will answer the first question first. Recognising the need to attract specialist staff from the film and television industry for roles within the office, a process of regrading all positions has been undertaken over the past year. The overall cost of employee-related expenses has risen as a result of the review, although normal award increases have also served to increase the salary payable for all
Page 54
positions. There is also an allocation to reflect the payment for the first time of members of the Film and Television Office board. Because it comprises people with expertise in a professional area and there are considerable time demands placed on board members, we decided, with the establishment of the board, to remunerate those positions at a level determined by the appropriate tribunal.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: Is that a sitting fee, as it were, a retainer, or an annual fee?

Mr WILLIAMS: It is an honorarium for members of the board.

Mr CARR: We will provide the Committee with the amount.

[Time expired.]

The Hon P. T. PRIMROSE: As agreed, the Government has no further questions.

CHAIR: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 97, line item "Sydney Opera House - maintenance". I note there is an amount of $5.8 million. There have been reports that the Sydney Opera House has concrete decay or concrete cancer. Will those maintenance costs be adequate for the repairs of the Sydney Opera House or are they being spread over more than a year? Are they progressively fair?

Mr CARR: I will seek assistance from Mr Williams on that.

Mr WILLIAMS: I can only say that the maintenance program is ongoing. This is the allocation for the current financial year. It will continue into the future and is a fairly stable allocation. I could give the Committee a break-up of the expenditures if I can take the question on notice.

CHAIR: Thank you. I thought there had been discovery of more serious problems with the building that may have required heavier expenditure on maintenance for repairs.

Mr WILLIAMS: I am not aware of that.

CHAIR: It may be in the capital grants area. It is a large figure of $14 million. Will you take that question on notice?

Mr CARR: Yes.

CHAIR: I have a controversial question with regard to the east Circular Quay building. There appear to be insufficient funds to pay for its removal or to contribute to its removal?

Mr CARR: The best estimate of the cost of removing the building and achieving a redesign of what else will be built on that site is about $200 million, hence our interest in whether the Commonwealth Government would make a contribution under the Federation Fund. Given that New South Wales is fully funding from its budget the huge task of the Olympics, it is appropriate for the Commonwealth, not the State, to do that - especially as I inherited the development approval for the building from the previous Government. These matters have been addressed.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: Who signed the approval in 1988?

Mr CARR: The approval was signed by Robert Webster for east Circular Quay, and Peter Collins provided a $1 million stamp duty exemption for the developers. The short answer is that $14 million could not be redirected from the Opera House site to the east Circular Quay site.

CHAIR: There was a report that there had been another proposal for a meeting between the Federal Government and the State Government in the past few days. That may be media talk. It is not connected to the Federation Fund?

Mr CARR: I do not think that is well based. I am not aware of it, in any case.

CHAIR: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 97, line item "Heritage Week". I note that the Heritage Office will now be responsible for the administration of Heritage Week. Where is the Heritage Office covered in the budget papers?

Mr CARR: It is under the Department of Urban Affairs and Planning.

CHAIR: I could not see it anywhere.

Mr CARR: No.

CHAIR: Is there any explanation for why that change occurred?

Mr WILLIAMS: It seemed more appropriate that the funding for Heritage Week should come from the Heritage Office and it was transferred from the ministry.

CHAIR: Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 97, line item "Arts development initiatives" shows an increase of more than 100 per cent. I do not think the Committee has received an answer as to what are the additional art development initiatives.

Mr CARR: The item reflects expenditure from
Page 55
the Arts Development Fund. The primary source of income for the fund flows from dividends paid on the Government’s shareholding in Arena Management Ltd, the lessee of the Sydney Entertainment Centre. During the next financial year expenses of the Arts Development Fund are expected to rise in line with the level of available funds. This gives an indication of the areas of expenditure. Past beneficiaries of this fund have included the Bangarra Dance Theatre - the Aboriginal dance company - the Centre for Contemporary Craft, Parramatta Riverside Theatres, the Biennale of Sydney, the Australian Brandenburg Orchestra and Opera Australia. We might be able to provide details on when decisions will be made about allocation of that fund if we can have a minute.

CHAIR: Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 97, line item "Cultural Grants Program" has an amount of $17 million. Was any provision made in that grant for the homosexual and lesbian mardi gras parade?

Mr CARR: I am keen to take this opportunity to say something that I pointed out only recently to the Daily Telegraph. As did the previous Government and the Government before that, this Government has provided no money, no subsidy, to the gay and lesbian mardi gras. The idea that somehow it is subsidised by governments has been an urban myth that has prevailed under the previous Government, the Government previous to that, and this Government.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: It makes money.

Mr CARR: The Hon. Virginia Chadwick says it makes money. It receives no government subsidy.

CHAIR: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 96, line item "Outdoor participants". The anticipated participation figures show a dramatic increase from 850,000 in 1997-98 to 1.5 million in 1998-99. What is the explanation for that anticipated increase? Are additional outdoor activities being held, or is there some simple explanation as to why the figure will almost double? I am pleased it will double. However, I am wondering why.

Mr CARR: I am told that reflects the Sydney Festival’s outdoor programs. These are the programs carried out within the Opera House precinct.

Mr WILLIAMS: Yes, that is right.

Mr CARR: That actually flows to the Sydney Festival. It reflects the Sydney Opera House’s contribution to the Sydney Festival.

CHAIR: I took that to mean they were outdoor participants in the grounds of the Opera House.

Mr CARR: In the Opera House forecourt?

CHAIR: That is right, participating.

Mr WILLIAMS: That is right.

CHAIR: Some of the Sydney Festival events are being held in the forecourt?

Mr WILLIAMS: Yes, some of their events are outdoor events held in the forecourt.

CHAIR: I will now ask a question that I intended to ask earlier. It relates to the Premier’s Department and concerns grants. I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 61, line item "Grant to St Mary’s Cathedral. I heard an announcement of a grant to St Andrew’s Cathedral which does not appear, unless it is to be in the next financial year?

Mr CARR: Yes. There is a State Government grant to St Andrew’s Cathedral.

CHAIR: Part of the restoration?

Mr CARR: Yes, part of the restoration of St Andrew’s. It will be reflected in the budget of the Heritage Office in the Department of Urban Affairs and Planning.

CHAIR: The St Mary’s Cathedral grant comes within your department, so the grants were made in two different ways.

Mr CARR: Yes. The St Mary’s Cathedral grant was made two years ago under miscellaneous grants from the Premier’s Department. The grant to St Andrew’s - which is matched by a grant from the Commonwealth, as I understand was the St Mary’s grant - was made out of the budget of the Heritage Office, which is the responsibility of the Minister for Urban Affairs and Planning. I am happy to say it was a proportionate amount of the cost of the restoration of St Andrew’s to the cost of the restoration of St Mary’s.

CHAIR: I am not critical. I wanted to make sure St Andrew’s had not been lost somewhere in the budget. I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 103, line item "Website hits". That would indicate that the State Library received a dramatic increase. One sees that in 1996-97 there were 800,000 hits, and in 1998-99 it is anticipated that figure will increase to five million. What is the explanation for that? Is it simply the greater use of computers or the popularity of the Internet, or has
Page 56
the State Library better advertised the availability of its resources?

Mr CARR: Under NSW.net we have a project that provides 100 public libraries in the State with high-speed connections to the Internet and other electronic information. Schools also have access to the Internet. So this project provides the necessary statewide communications infrastructure to allow the sharing of information. It involves local libraries. Ongoing telecommunications costs are to be met by individual local libraries but NSW.net offers a State subsidy so that all participants pay no more than a set rate per year. As a result, country public libraries and local authorities connected to NSW.net pay the same amount for Internet access as their counterparts in Sydney. So we are looking at a subsidy to rural New South Wales to enable them to use this technology. There are no timed call charges, and costs are lowered through government discounts and the bulk purchasing power of a large network. So, NSW.net is providing local libraries with a cost-effective means of obtaining 24 hours a day, seven days a week, access to the Internet, as well as government, library and local authority information and email. That reflects the growth in local libraries using that service.

CHAIR: Would that be connected to schools as well?

Mr CARR: Yes, all schools in New South Wales were connected to the Internet at the end of last year.

CHAIR: This is an organisational question. Page 98 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1 shows there has been a change in the administration of Carnivale, which I understand has been basically an ethnic event. Why has there been a change in the administration? The grant was previously administered by the Ethnic Affairs Commission. Is there some simple explanation for that?

Mr CARR: I will ask the Secretary of the Arts Ministry to comment.

Mr WILLIAMS: There was a meeting with the organisers of Carnivale which Mr Kerkyasharian and I attended. The whole question of the future funding of Carnivale was discussed with them. As a result of that meeting it was agreed, and it was the wish of Carnivale itself, it would be more appropriate, given the artistic nature of many of the events, that in future Carnivale would be funded through the Ministry for the Arts rather than directly through the Ethnic Affairs Commission. That was the reason for it. It was the preference of Carnivale itself.

CHAIR: The Ethnic Affairs Commission was happy with that arrangement. That is basically what I was hinting at.

Mr CARR: Yes.

CHAIR: The organisations were happy for that to happen?

Mr KERKYASHARIAN: We were very happy and, in fact, it makes sense to us because we did not want Carnivale to be regarded as a marginalised event, but rather as an event which is part and parcel of mainstream cultural and artistic activity of the State. We supported the view that it rightfully belongs within the Arts portfolio.

CHAIR: Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 109, the line item "Outputs" shows that there has been a steady increase in recent years in the number of free visitors to the Australian Museum, whereas the fee has remained stationary. In 1995-96 the total was 14,000 and it is anticipated that that number will increase to 71,000 this financial year. Who are the people entering the museum free? Are they school or education groups?

Mr WILLIAMS: I can give you the details of that. It would presumably be for children, school groups, pensioners, the unemployed, and the other beneficiaries of free admissions to the Australian Museum and other cultural institutions.

CHAIR: What is the fee for a paying visitor to enter? Do you know offhand?

Mr WILLIAMS: I think at present it is $6.

CHAIR: Is there any thought that that discourages people from attending the museum? I know it helps to raise income, but it is good to have people using the facilities. Have there been any complaints by visitors about the $6?

Mr WILLIAMS: No. The charge has now been in force for four years. There have been no recent complaints about the level of the charge. It is considered to be reasonable.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 109, agency 11, Australian Museum. What factors led to the estimation that the total number of visitors to the Australian Museum will decline, for the first time in many years, in 1998-99? The figures range from 261,000 in 1995-96 to 319,000 in 1996-97 to 362,000 in 1997-98, then it is projected back to 360,000 for 1998-99.

Page 57
Mr CARR: I do not know. I will contact the museum administration and report to the Committee.

Mr WILLIAMS: It would depend on the timing and the nature of the exhibitions. There was a very successful exhibition called "Spiders". It is not likely that that would be repeated at that level of success, although one would hope that it would be. I think it is a conservative estimate.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: We must bear in mind that we are approaching the Olympic Games and visitors will be flowing intrastate, interstate as well as from overseas.

Mr WILLIAMS: Yes.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: Is it expected that the entry fee for the museum will change in the period 1998-99?

Mr CARR: No.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 92, agency 9, Ministry for the Arts. What interstate and overseas visits are expected to be undertaken by staff employed by the ministry in 1998-99, and what will be the cost of such travel?

Mr CARR: Those costs are met within the budget of each arts organisation. There is no central budget that is used for overseas travel. Occasionally a curator from the Art Gallery of New South Wales, for example, goes overseas to collect material for an exhibition, and likewise with the other institutions. I am not sure whether they are in a position to provide us with an estimate.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: The question was related to the ministry.

Mr WILLIAMS: I would not anticipate any significant change in the amount of overseas or interstate travel by ministry staff.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: What advertising will be undertaken by the ministry in 1998-99, and what will be the cost of such advertising and in which media will such advertising appear?

Mr WILLIAMS: The only advertising that the ministry undertakes normally is for its own cultural brand programs, which are publicly advertised regularly. I would not anticipate any increase or significant variation in that expenditure in 1998-99.

The Hon. J. M. SAMIOS: In relation to Budget Paper No. 4, page 23, what is the nature of the public programs being undertaken at the Australian Museum costing $4.04 million in 1998-99 and a total of $12.125 million between 1997 and 2002?

Mr CARR: We will take that question on notice.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 140. Can you explain the nature of the cash assets of the New South Wales Film and Television Office? The Budget Paper shows $7.527 million in 1997-1998 and $4.8 million in cash in 1998-99. It seems to be an enormous amount of cash to keep on hand.

Mr WILLIAMS: We can give you more information on that. There is a revolving fund which is maintained by the office. The returns on its own equity investment in film production flow back to the office and there are grants which are held pending the return of acceptable films from the funding of the office. I can give you a few more details.

The Hon. VIRGINIA CHADWICK: If you say it is returned, the next page shows that the return to Government has been going down steadily each year in recent years, and that is only at about $200,000 - a far cry from $7.5 million.

CHAIR: Would you prefer to take that question on notice?

Mr WILLIAMS: I think it would be wise. I
Page 58
am happy to provide an answer to you. Regarding the earlier question about the production of investment funds, it allows the office to take a strategic equity position in the production of the budget by reasons of the assets of the office and the production budget of film or television productions including documentaries.

CHAIR: I have a minor question that might give you an opportunity to finish with a flourish. What impact will the new Fox Studios have on the promotion and assistance of the New South Wales film industry?

Mr CARR: Splendid. I think any political flourish would be wasted at this point, all things considered. I can answer with perfect candour. Any reservations that I might have harboured in the recesses of my political soul about whether this would be a serious operation have been well and truly resolved. There has been a big capital investment. It is now seen as the most advanced film studio currently in the world. It is technically superior to any other film studio in the world, I am told by experts. The Fox organisation has confirmed that it will be making very large budget and serious movies there. It has made a commitment to Australian scriptwriters by setting up a centre on site for writers in residence, which is a terrific experience for young Australian writers; I think four are employed at any one time. Moreover, it has restored every one of the historic buildings within the precinct - something the government sector could not have afforded to have done. I think when it is open to the public the year after next it will be seen as a very exciting place for families to explore. They will go into retail areas that will be special, I am assured, and like none other around Sydney, and they will be able to witness movies being made. It will be a new and very special precinct in Sydney.

The movie industry is almost unique in the great multiplier effect it has on jobs. Movie-makers employ caterers and tradesmen to construct the very often huge and elaborate sets that are needed. The flow-on effect will be very good, and the development has more than fulfilled my expectations. As someone who took somewhat of a political risk in sponsoring it, I am very relieved. I think that all the critics - even the one referred to by name by the Hon. Virginia Chadwick - will have their fears allayed by what they witness.

CHAIR: I was concerned to hear reports of the Sydney City Council and the South Sydney Council charging what appear to be exorbitant fees for outdoor filming, which must be part of a studio production. I would consider outdoor filming to be a big advantage in promoting Sydney’s scenery, harbour and so on. Will you have discussions with those councils to ensure that the fees charged will not impose too heavy a burden?

Mr CARR: I will and I am. The fees that are being charged are being studied and the Government
Page 59
is obtaining legal advice on the councils’ right to charge fees. Moreover, what might be described as a working group or a committee has been convened to get all government agencies, both local and State, to pull together to respond - a one-stop shop for movie makers.

CHAIR: I take it that would enable movie makers to get a permit, a certificate and so forth.

Mr CARR: Exactly. If movie-makers require a location around Observatory Hill or Walsh Bay, for example, they will be able to get that with a minimum of fuss. We will be able to say to people making films or television series here - who have been attracted by the Fox Studios, the technical excellence and the relative cheapness of Australian personnel, and the interesting locales that Sydney can offer - that if they go to a particular office they will be able to get all the approvals they need to make a movie on the streets of Sydney.

The Committee proceeded to deliberate on the recommendation of the vote.

Last modified 13/06/2007 09:27:50 : Update this page