Legislative Council; General Purpose Standing Committees; The Legislature

The Hon. Dr Marlene Goldsmith
The Hon. J. R. Johnson
The Hon. D. F. Moppett
The Hon. P. T. Primrose


The Hon. M. F. Willis, President of the Legislative Council

Mr J. D. Evans, Clerk of the Parliaments
Mr G. McGill, Financial Controller

Mr S. Bennett, Manager, Parliamentary Building Services
Mr R. Brian, Parliamentary Librarian
Mr D. Draper, Manager, Food and Beverage Services
Mr M. Faulkner, Acting Editor of Debates
Ms M. Ganesan, Acting Manager, Parliamentary Information Technology Services
Mr R. Lawrie, Manager, Parliamentary Archives
Ms P. Makin, Acting Manager, Parliamentary Printing Services
Mr G. Spindler, Acting Manager, Education and Community Relations



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CHAIR: I declare General Purpose Standing Committee No. 1 open. Before the questions commence, I remind Committee members that at the hearing on 29 May 1997 the Committee authorised the broadcasting of public proceedings. Should it be considered that the broadcasting of these proceedings be discontinued, a member will be required to move a motion accordingly. I am pleased to welcome the President, the Clerk of the Parliaments, and the Financial Controller, and I thank them for their attendance. At this meeting the Committee will examine the proposed expenditure from the Consolidated Fund for the portfolio area of The Legislature. Before questions commence, some procedural matters need to be dealt with.

While paragraph 7 of the budget estimates committee reference provides that a member of a committee and any Minister present to answer questions may have staff present to assist them during the hearing of evidence and may refer to those staff at any time, I remind members’ staff and any other persons that they should take care not to interrupt proceedings and that they should observe the usual courtesies that apply to a meeting of the House or a committee. Where possible, messages for members should be given through the attendant on duty or to the Committee Clerks. For the information of members of the media, the House resolved on 4 June 1998 that the press and public be admitted to proceedings of the Committee. I wish to explain to the media what is required by the standing order of the Legislative Council in this regard so that they will be aware of the position. Legislative Council Standing Order 252 provides:

Evidence taken by any Select Committee of the House, and documents presented to such Committee which have not been reported to the House, may not, except with the permission of the Committee, be disclosed or published by any Member of such Committee or by any other person.

In reporting the proceedings of the Committee, as with reporting proceedings of both Houses of Parliament, you must take responsibility for what you publish or what interpretation is placed on anything that is said before the Committee. In order to accurately complete the Questions and Answers paper, the Committee Clerk requires that members complete and sign the appropriate form when a question is taken or given on notice. For the benefit of members and Hansard, I ask departmental officials to identify themselves by name, position and department or agency before answering each question. I will now outline the proposed allocations of time agreed to in relation to questioning. There will be three 20-minute blocks. The Opposition will be first, followed by the Government and then the crossbenchers. I remind the President and members that each question is limited to one minute and that each reply is limited to four minutes.

The PRESIDENT: I shall endeavour to be brief.

CHAIR: We do not wish to inhibit either the questions or the answers to anything that is relevant to a matter before the Committee. We will commence with questions from members of the Opposition.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: What parliamentary delegations will go overseas and what foreign delegations will be hosted by New South Wales in the financial year 1998-99?

The PRESIDENT: Under our sister-State agreements, this coming year delegations from this Parliament are scheduled to travel to sister Parliaments in Seoul, California and Tokyo. No arrangements have been made as yet in relation to any of these delegations. Because it is an election year, it may be necessary to postpone them until some later stage. I have not had discussions in this regard with the Speaker at this stage. Similarly, in this coming financial year we are due to receive a reciprocal delegation from the Guangdong province of China.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: What is the cost of the alterations to levels 11 and 12 to relocate members and staff?

The PRESIDENT: The total cost has been budgeted at $559,000. In this current financial year approximately $46,000 has been expended and the balance will be expended in the coming financial year. To date we have received supplementation to The Legislature’s budget from Treasury in the sum of $103,00 to temporarily relocate certain committees to FAI House while the works are being done. We have had assurances from the Treasurer that the whole of the cost will be the subject of supplementation. The bottom line is that it will not impact adversely on The Legislature’s budget.

The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT: Could you indicate the total legal costs that have been incurred in the inquiry undertaken by the Standing Committee on Parliamentary Privilege and Ethics into the conduct of the Hon. Franca Arena?

The Hon. J. R. Johnson: On a point of order. Is it appropriate for that question to be asked at this time?

The Hon. Dr Marlene Goldsmith: On the point of order. We are only talking about costs. We are not making any kind of legal comment on the issue.

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CHAIR: I do not know whether the President has the answer.

The Hon. J. R. Johnson: On the point of order. The answer may draw comment from the press before the matter has been determined by the privilege and ethics committee. It would be better left unasked.

CHAIR: As I understand it, it is not a question about the decision or the processes of the Committee, or any matter before the Committee. It is simply a financial question. If the President is prepared to answer it -

The PRESIDENT: Perhaps I can put it this way and the Committee can determine whether it wants me to go into detail. This expenditure is also the subject of supplementation by Treasury - and I am not talking about the actual costs of the sittings of the committee to the Parliament; I am talking about the legal costs involved in representation. They are the subject of moderation and advice from the Crown Solicitor upon request from the Treasurer. After the moderation of those legal costs by that process, fees are paid from the budget of The Legislature but they are supplemented automatically, in effect, by arrangement undertaken by the Treasurer. So far as the legal costs are concerned, the bottom line is that they do not impact adversely on the budget of The Legislature because they are the subject of supplementation.

CHAIR: Therefore it is not actually directly related to the business of The Legislature.

The PRESIDENT: They are paid by The Legislature but then they are moderated, and whatever they are moderated at is reimbursed to The Legislature by way of supplementation arrangement from Treasury.

CHAIR: It may be best to put that question on notice so that the President can then consult with the Clerk of the Parliaments as to what information is released before it is released by the Committee. The Committee has to present a report to Parliament.

The PRESIDENT: That is the answer in principle.

The Hon. D. F. MOPPETT: In view of the objection raised by my colleague the Hon. J. R. Johnson, I am satisfied with that answer. No doubt the full cost will become known at a later stage. It is a relief to know that it will not immediately impact on the budget of The Legislature. Will funds be provided in the forthcoming financial year for relief staff to be employed in the absence of members’ staff when they are on leave?

The PRESIDENT: This is the classic perennial question. If I have failed The Legislature anywhere it is certainly in that regard. I have written to Treasury on a number of occasions in regard to this matter - not just a number of occasions in the last financial year but in every financial year that I have been President - and to date no additional funding has been provided. The fact that provision has not been made for temporary relief when members’ staff are on annual leave results in considerable administrative problems for all members because for at least five weeks of the year members do not have any secretarial or research assistants. That does not include unplanned absences that may occur as a result of illness, incapacity, family or emergency matters.

I point out to the Committee that members of the Legislative Assembly are entitled to relief staff on any day that staff members are absent on leave, except for training. In my view the provision of relief staff to members of the Legislative Council will place members on the same footing as their counterparts in the Legislative Assembly. I regret to say that I can do no more than I have, unsuccessful though my efforts have been. I also regret to say that replacement staff cannot be funded from within the global resources of the Legislative Council’s budget, because the amount involved comes to something in the vicinity of $200,000 a year. We just do not have that kind of money unless we cut savagely into some other area. I must admit failure.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I move now to the Parliamentary Library. What provisions are being made regarding the Australian Association Press service in the Parliamentary Library?

The PRESIDENT: The AAP service provided by the Parliamentary Library has been terminated as from 9 January 1998. Therefore, it has not been available to members since then. However, I have recently received a report from my technology adviser group in the Legislative Council which is chaired by the Hon. D. J. Gay. The bottom line of that report is that because of the valuable nature of the AAP service, as assessed by that committee, I have been requested to ascertain whether it can be funded from within the Legislative Council’s global budget as a service to Legislative Councillors.

If the service that was curtailed when the Library Committee took the decision was to be provided to all members of the Parliament it would cost in the vicinity of $38,000 to $39,000 a year. If it were to be provided to Legislative Council members only it would cost in the vicinity of $20,000 to $21,000. In view of the nature of that report, I am currently
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looking at whether we can accommodate that cost within the budget for the forthcoming year. It is a matter of finding the money within the budget.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I note that there has been a reduction in staff in the Parliamentary Library. As somebody who is an intensive user of the library reference and information service I note there has been a reduction of two in the number of staff in that section. Can the President expand on the necessity for that reduction?

The PRESIDENT: Money.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: Why was that area targeted?

The PRESIDENT: That is a matter which is largely left to the Parliamentary Librarian if he has to make cuts. I would draw to the attention of the Committee that the development of the library’s program was put in place some years ago, shortly after I became President of the Legislative Council, and had been planned before that, during the presidency of President Johnson. Whilst the program progressed apace for a number of years, as the Parliament has come increasingly under financial restriction in the last few years, we obviously have not had the money to do these things. As a consequence not only has a brake been put on the implementation of further sophisticated library services, but there has been a necessity for some staff cutbacks.

It has been brought to my attention that one of the problems is the provision for the equivalent of 4.5 per cent sector pay increases. The library is required to effect savings of more than 3 per cent to meet the overall cost of these increases. The Legislature is required to do that from within its own budget. The bottom line whenever one is required to do that by Treasury is that staff have to be shed somewhere. I regret to say that is the reason.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: I note in Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, at page 25, that the total budget for the Parliamentary Library has been cut in absolute as well as real terms not on the actual expenditure but certainly the allocated budget from last year. Last year it was $2.764 million and it is $2.684 million this year.

The PRESIDENT: I hear what you say. It should be borne in mind that these are estimates and the Parliamentary Library faced a similar situation last year. It is fair to say that with restrictions on resources the library came through the year pretty well.

Bear in mind that as the year progresses Mr Speaker and I have the capacity to move money around within the global budget of The Legislature. If there is underexpenditure in some areas we are able to reallocate money and thus mitigate the slash-and-burn potential. Basically that is what happened with the Parliamentary Library in the current financial year, but things are screwing down year by year and increasingly there is less fat available.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: What provision has been made for funding the establishment of any standing or select committees within the current year?

The PRESIDENT: None, if you mean new standing committees. This is a great problem. When we are budgeting forward we have no idea what select committees might pop up or what new standing committees might be established. All we can do is go on the historical rule of thumb. We basically estimate for all the currently established committees and as ad hoc committees or new standing committees are established we use the same kind of reallocation process. We take from the global committee budget as much as we can - some committees overspend, some underspend - and we muddle through as best we can.

Unfortunately, unlike other legislatures, we have no contingency fund upon which we can call. I repeatedly tell the Treasurer and others in authority that we cannot establish committees willy-nilly and expect them to operate without funds being allocated by way of supplementation. Whenever a new committee is established, as a matter of principle we cost out an estimate and seek supplementation. We always get a letter back saying, "Take it from within your own budget."

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: Page 17 of Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, agency 1 The Legislature shows a substantial increase for asset acquisitions in the coming year. What does that substantial increase relate to?

The PRESIDENT: I am informed that the main component is the $1 million allocation to deal with the millennium bug, as well as other computer matters.

[Time expired.]

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: Has provision been made for the payment of agreed salary increases to staff members, and when can they expect it?

The PRESIDENT: What do you mean by staff members?

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: Staff of the members of the Legislative Council.

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The PRESIDENT: You mean members’ personal staff?

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: Yes. They were on strike a few weeks ago over pay increases.

The PRESIDENT: My advisers do not have a specific break-up for Legislative Council members; I can talk about staff throughout the Parliament. Treasury has provided $1.206 million to fund the 3 per cent increase from July 1998 and the 3 per cent from January 1999. We have been told that we have to find the other 2 per cent that is payable from July 1998 and the further 2 percent that is payable from January 1999 - a total of $555,000 - from corporate support savings, that is, from within our budget. In other words, over this period we have to find $844,000 within our global budget.

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: As a result of negotiations, when will that be paid?

The PRESIDENT: From those dates.

The Hon P. T. PRIMROSE: I note that the effective full-time average staffing of Parliamentary Building Services has reduced the number of cleaners from 27 to 23. What effect will that reduction have, if any, on the overall cleanliness and maintenance of the parliamentary precincts?

The PRESIDENT: It can mean one of two things: either those who are left work will harder, or the place will not be as clean as it used to be - or a bit of both. Overall my observation, which is mainly the public areas, is that the cleaning staff do a pretty good job. Again, that is something that has been imposed on us by virtue of overall cutbacks. We cannot take much more of a reduction or we will begin to see a significant decline in the daily maintenance of the premises.

The Hon P. T. PRIMROSE: I am concerned about the first option you put: that those who are left will be asked to work harder. Given that the cleaning staff do an excellent job, it is not fair to ask -

The Hon. Dr Marlene Goldsmith: On a point of order. This is a question session, not a general discussion group. Members of this Committee should ask questions, not engage in discussion.

The Hon P. T. PRIMROSE: I thank the honourable member for her advice. I am concerned about the cleaners.

The PRESIDENT: I am concerned not only with cleaners but with staff of all departments. As I said to the Hon. Dr Marlene Goldsmith, in recent years the Parliament has been subject to increasing restraint and cutbacks. We have reached a point where there is no fat left. From here we move into the area where, in order to meet the reductions imposed upon us, we have to start cutting back on staff.

We have reached a point where any further cuts to staff numbers will result in a deterioration in services. To date we have managed to hold the line.

The Hon P. T. PRIMROSE: Given that I am not allowed to comment, I ask the following question in relation to financial strictures. Can you give an assurance that those employees at the bottom end of the pay scale will not be asked to bear the burden, as always occurs? I refer particularly to cleaners being asked, because of a reduction in resources, to do far more than they do now to meet the continuing demands.

The PRESIDENT: I would like to be able to give a cast-iron assurance, but I cannot. We are already under pressure from government to examine whether a number of areas can be more economically dealt with by outsourcing. I am not necessarily an unthinking disciple of outsourcing. I do not necessarily believe it is cheaper or more efficient, particularly in an establishment such as this where a great deal of confidentiality, for want of a better word, is involved; members must be able to have confidence in staff such as cleaners and security people in particular. I am sceptical about whether outsourcing is the answer. However, I make the point that we are coming under increasing pressure to save more money. I take the point made by the Hon. P. T. Primrose. The only assurance I can give is that I am alive to the problem he is talking about and I am not necessarily a hard-nosed economic rationalist in that regard.

The Hon P. T. PRIMROSE: I am pleased that the President shares my view, unlike others who do not want me to ask questions about cleaners. Once again referring to average effective full-time staffing, the number of staff providing food services will be reduced from 20 to 14 and the number providing beverage services will be reduced from 12 to 8. What effect will that have on members?

The PRESIDENT: The Hon. P. T. Primrose is talking about a reduction in permanent staff as opposed to casual staff. That reduction has occurred by attrition, not by forced redundancies. It is more economical for the food and beverage services manager to replace permanent staff who have left with casual staff, who work only when required. I have seen no evidence that it has caused any decline in the food and beverage services.

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The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: Will additional money be made available to the gardening service, particularly for the usual planting of annuals in the roof garden? I have been advised that the gardeners have brought in a number of plants from their own establishments because there was no money available for plants. Further, our Parliament does not have quality products for sale for members to give to international, interstate or constituency guests. The President has no doubt observed the fine display of products for sale in the House of Commons, and also in the legislatures of the United States of America, Canada and some of our sister Parliaments in Australia.

The PRESIDENT: I assume the Hon. J. R. Johnson would like some waratahs planted?

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: Not with the same result as last time.

The PRESIDENT: In relation to gardening services, the problems are again caused by cutbacks in funding, which I find sad. Restrictions have been placed on building services, and gardening is one of the areas that has suffered as a consequence. Only one annual planting is now permitted from the funds available.

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: Perhaps a few packets of seeds could be scattered.

The PRESIDENT: Breed our own seedlings? I will pass that on to the building services manager. I take the honourable member’s point about product gifts.

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: Their introduction is something that has eluded me.

The PRESIDENT: You mean that you failed?

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: Yes.

The PRESIDENT: Perhaps it might be my successful swan song. I will try.

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: I will assist. I ask the President to convey to all of his departmental staff our appreciation of the tremendous service they render for each and every member.

The Hon. Dr MARLENE GOLDSMITH: The Opposition joins in those remarks.

CHAIR: The Committee has already had discussions regarding renovations costing $559,000. Lengthy negotiations have delayed the renovations proceeding until now. However, in view of the election that will be held on 27 March 1999, what consideration has been given to possible changes in the party membership of the upper House? As further renovations may be required, is there a contingency plan?

The PRESIDENT: I would not begin to speculate on the composition of the Legislative Council after the next election. I wish my successor good luck in the rearrangements.

CHAIR: The underlying point of my question is that perhaps the renovations have been delayed until March next year to save the Parliament unnecessary expense?

The PRESIDENT: Irrespective of the make-up of the Legislative Council after the next election, any accommodation rearrangement costs would be minimal and within the normal budget that is allocated for rearrangements that occur after every election. The same thing occurs in the lower House. I will stick my neck out and say that I do not consider it will be a great problem. I take the opportunity in this context to add that I am aware of the probability of a two-year delay in the implementation. To some extent that has been because of my obstinacy in that I would not approve anything unless all the ramifications had been thought through and agreed to.

Many people who wanted things done in a hurry failed to understand that things have a ripple effect. Fortunately, that seems to have been worked out and the whole thing is going ahead. However, there is a subsequent ripple effect, that is, the long-term accommodation needs of the Parliament. This is currently the subject of an investigation by an Executive Government committee, and it involves such matters as FAI House, Nightingale House, the courts building, et cetera. The committee has been consulting closely with the Presiding Officers.

CHAIR: When the renovations are completed where will the standing committees be located?

The PRESIDENT: Of the upper House?

CHAIR: Of the upper House, in general terms.

The PRESIDENT: The two committees located on level 8 will remain where they are, and the committee located in FAI House will remain there until the longer-term accommodation needs of the Parliament are determined by the committee to which I just adverted and the Presiding Officers.

CHAIR: As all members and you, Mr President, would know, a great deal of pressure is placed on members in relation to meeting rooms, particularly as
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Federal committees regularly hold meetings in Parliament House. How many meeting rooms will be available when the renovations and the reconstruction is completed?

The PRESIDENT: When the translation to level 11 occurs after completion of the current renovations an additional two meeting rooms will be available.

CHAIR: Are there any plans for one or more of those meeting rooms to be fitted out for public hearings, for example, by our standing committees, in terms of communications equipment, Hansard equipment, public address equipment and so on?

The PRESIDENT: The answer to that is no, but it is a good point and I will take that up with Building Services.

CHAIR: I note that in Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 23, the committee staff is shown as having been reduced from 40 to 34. What impact is that having on the operation of committees?

The PRESIDENT: No committee chairman has complained to me about it, so I presume that the committees are managing. There are two factors involved. First, the Clerk Assistant (Committees) informs me that there is an increasing tendency for committees, instead of having permanent staff, to call in specialised staff for the period of a certain inquiry. Second, we are in the run-up to an election and, if
history is any guide, there will be less and less committee activity as we get closer to the election.

CHAIR: Not according to the timetable that has been released. I refer to Budget Paper No. 3, Volume 1, page 27. I note that the number of Hansard staff has been reduced by one. However, the budget papers contain a reference to Hansard contract staff. Are contract staff included in the figure on page 27, or do they appear in another part of the budget papers, if there were contract staff?

The Hon. J. R. JOHNSON: There are contract staff.

The PRESIDENT: The answer is that, first, one permanent staff member has not yet been replaced and that is the Editor of Debates. We have an Acting Editor at the moment. The appointment of an Editor is currently under consideration by Mr Speaker and me. Secondly, as permanent staff drop off by attrition, departments are being required to engage contractors during sessions as needed. It is a management measure imposed by the Editor of Debates as a means of satisfying financial constraints.

CHAIR: My other questions relating to cleaning staff, food services and other matters have already been dealt with by other members of the Committee.

The Committee proceeded to deliberate on the recommendation of the vote.


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