Meat Industry (Game Meat) Amendment Bill

The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER (Minister for Planning, and Minister for Housing) [10.21]: I move:

That this bill be now read a second time.

I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in Hansard.

Leave not granted.

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The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: The Meat Industry (Game Meat) Amendment Bill provides regulatory control over the transportation and processing of kangaroo meat for human consumption as game meat. Subject to these controls, kangaroo game meat will be available for sale through retail meat outlets. The bill will establish a system of licensing of shooters' vehicles, game meat vans and game meat processing plants and premises. The New South Wales meat industry authority will issue the licences and carry out inspections to ensure compliance with hygiene and construction standards. On 6th January, 1989, the Minister for Health and the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs jointly announced that kangaroo meat would be available for human consumption in New South Wales. There has been extensive consultation between New South Wales Agriculture, the New South Wales Meat Industry Authority, the National Parks and Wildlife Service, the Department of Health and the Commonwealth Department of Primary Industries and Energy.

Kangaroo meat provides a good quality, lean, polyunsaturated red meat. It is considered highly desirable by many consumers and nutritionists, especially for cholesterol reducing diets. It is high in protein but extremely low in fat. Kangaroo meat has been legally available for years for consumption in retail butcher shops in South Australia, Tasmania and overseas. The Commonwealth Department of Primary Industries and Energy will carry out meat inspections at game meat processing plants. Game meat standards to be adopted in New South Wales will comply with export requirements. At the retail meat level, kangaroo meat will be subject to the provisions of the Food Act, which is administered by the Department of Health. Kangaroo meat will be hygienically packed in sealed plastic bags and clearly labelled. A technical and further education course on meat hygiene for kangaroo meat shooters and processors has been prepared. A code of practice for game meat harvesting and processing is being developed and will apply to all shooters and processors in New South Wales. The National Parks and Wildlife Service kangaroo management program will oversee the kangaroo cull.

Last year the Commonwealth Minister for the Arts, Sport, the Environment, Tourism and Territories, Ms Ros Kelly, announced the commercial kangaroo harvesting quota for 1991, which was an increase of 28.6 per cent on the 1990 harvest quota for New South Wales. Ms Kelly stated, "The quotas have been increased to provide sufficient control of agricultural and pastoral damage in the face of rising kangaroo populations". In New South Wales this increase in kangaroo populations was due to the sustained above average rainfall. The need to cull has been accepted on a bipartisan basis by all States and the Commonwealth. Quotas are based primarily on population estimates derived from aerial and ground surveys and conducted by wildlife scientists working for, or under contract to, the Australian National Parks and Wildlife Service and State kangaroo management authorities. The quota is set with the dual aim of maintaining red and grey kangaroo populations over their known range and minimising their harmful effects on agricultural production. The present bill does not increase the quota, but it enables the efficient use of kangaroos as a valuable renewable resource. Recognition of kangaroo meat as a valuable product will ensure the proper retention of kangaroo populations. At present in New South Wales processing caters for a small export market and for pet food. A valuable resource is generally left in the field. This bill will ensure a more economic and beneficial use of kangaroo meat as a resource and as a food. New South Wales consumers will have the freedom of choice of kangaroo meat as an alternative healthy, nutritious red meat. I commend the bill to the House.

The Hon. B. H. VAUGHAN (Deputy Leader of the Opposition) [10.25]: The parliamentary Labor Party opposes this bill.


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The PRESIDENT: Order! The Deputy Leader of the Opposition has the call.

The Hon. B. H. VAUGHAN: A bill of the same nature as the Meat Industry (Game Meat) Amendment Bill has been introduced into this House before, and I remind all honourable members that it was voted out of the House at the first reading stage. Indeed, when it was voted out Government members did not protest with any real conviction, which leads one to ask the inevitable question: why is the Government trying again? I leave that to the Government to answer. It is vital to recognise that kangaroos cannot be mustered, yarded or drenched. The bill's introduction, as the second reading speech of the Minister for Planning and Minister for Housing attests, smells of deceit. Common understanding would have it that this bill is for the purpose of legalising the consumption of kangaroo meat. However, the bill, on a literal reading, allows for the consumption of a wider range of game meat. The bill will allow the consumption of brolgas, koala bears and dingoes - and who would want to eat a dingo? The bill, if restricted to the consumption of kangaroo meat, fails to ensure proper hygiene standards in the killing and storing of such meat. It is absolutely important from a hygienic point of view that anything killed be put in a freezer within four hours. That certainly cannot happen in the southwest of Queensland, where I have had considerable experience. The bill fails to provide for adequate transportation of such meat. The Government has failed to resolve the fundamental question of who owns the kangaroos and the other game animals which the bill may incorporate. This is fundamental in so far as to whom the profit goes from the sale of such meat. If there is no definable owner, then the killing and sale of meat could be regarded as theft. The most important thing is disease. Anyone who has seen the paunch of a kangaroo, with those millions and millions of worms, will know what I am talking about. For this reason and others, the parliamentary Labor Party opposes the bill.

The Hon. L. D. W. COLEMAN [10.28]: I support the Meat Industry (Game Meat) Amendment Bill. The provision of kangaroo meat for human consumption will not result in the killing of any more kangaroos than are already being culled. It will actually help to stop indiscriminate killing of kangaroos, making them more valuable. I well remember when rabbits were bad and my father put threepence a head on them.

The Hon. J. R. Johnson: They are still bad.

The Hon. L. D. W. COLEMAN: I well remember the days of the rabbit skin bounty, which served in effect to perpetuate the rabbit trade because skins had a value. Kangaroo culling is controlled by the National Parks and Wildlife Service according to quotas set by the Federal Government. Quotas are set with the dual aims of maintaining kangaroo populations and controlling their harmful effects on agricultural production. If the Hon. R. S. L. Jones bothered to visit the Far West of this State he would see the damage being done by kangaroos and would know what I am talking about. He, unlike most of the Government members, has not been out there.

The Hon. J. R. Johnson: That is right: most of the Government members have not been out there lately. Let the record show that.

The Hon. L. D. W. COLEMAN: Opposition members have not been out there, like most Government members. Kangaroo numbers have increased in number to the point that they are often found beside the highway south to Moss Vale and are presenting a danger to passing traffic.

The Hon. I. M. Macdonald: For 20 years there have been road signs saying "Kangaroos next 20 kilometres".

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The Hon. L. D. W. COLEMAN: But they were not found dead on the highways in the numbers seen today. On recent figures, the red kangaroo population is estimated at nine million, with a total quota of two million - a big increase of 38 per cent on last year. Since 1988, the kangaroo population has doubled, due in part to the effects of drought. Any bushman knows it is impossible to count kangaroos accurately and that there are many more kangaroos than those actually counted. Currently kangaroo meat is either left to rot in the paddock or is used for pet food. Students of the Bible well know that it is against Christian teaching to waste resources. I am always appalled at the sheer waste of kangaroo meat and skins caused by do-gooders who think they are preserving the kangaroo by impractical and archaic laws and ideas. The kangaroo is a liability to landholders and is treated by them as vermin. Improvement of watering points has stopped the natural kangaroo culling process. Lack of water culled kangaroos naturally; renewed water supply has allowed the kangaroo population to increase and cause untold ecological damage. However, any culling methods selected should be economical.

The food advisory committee recommended that kangaroo meat be made available for human consumption. Kangaroo meat is extremely lean, dark red and low in cholesterol, with a decent and welcome game flavour. There is an expanding export market for the meat, especially in Europe. Landholders desperately need greater income just to survive. At the moment hundreds of landholders are in dire straits. Are they to be deprived of another source of income which could assist maintenance of their properties? Australia needs foreign exchange. Millions of kangaroos could be farmed economically, and this would prove to be a great asset to Australia. In addition, a seemingly endless potential is developing for kangaroo meat. Starvation has caused tremendous degradation to the environment. Ways must be found of utilising all our resources, including the kangaroo. People who regularly travel in the Western Division are appalled by the environmental damage being done to the pastures of the western plains by excess numbers of kangaroos. The kangaroo population is expanding and is being culled only by natural means through drought and old age, the small skin and pet meat trade, poisoning, electrocution and, in desperation, indiscriminate shooting. Most of that culling is just a sheer waste, unchristian and completely contrary to the precept of waste not, want not, which was part of my upbringing. At present kangaroos are in plague proportions. Putting a value on the kangaroo will guarantee its future. It is wonderful that kangaroos are to be seen where they have never previously been sighted, including the hills in the 80 kilometre area around Lithgow. On the basis of sheer commonsense and of heeding the requirements of landholders, I support the bill.

The Hon. I. M. MACDONALD [10.35]: I support the position outlined by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition in relation to the bill, but I wish to make a few comments which go beyond much of the rhetoric generated on all sides of the House on this issue. Undoubted scientific evidence is available to refute many of the statements made about eating kangaroo meat. The major issue raised about kangaroo meat by the Hon. R. S. L. Jones and others is the presence of salmonella and worms. Salmonella in kangaroo meat has been examined at length in a number of studies by scientists operating within the framework of the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization. A proportion of all raw animal products carry salmonella but do not generally cause food poisoning problems because they are not eaten raw. In most cases, once food is cooked, salmonella is eliminated. The salmonella organism is very sensitive to heat and is generally killed by it. Many other food products also carry salmonella but do not generally cause food poisoning because they are cooked or because not enough organisms are present to cause problems in the consumer.

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For example, in 1990-91 the IMVS Salmonella Reference Laboratory in Adelaide reported cases of isolation of salmonella in foods as diverse as macadamia nuts, white pepper, sultanas, cereal, ice cream, cake and drinking water. Salmonella was found to be widely present in a broad range of products. Raw crocodile meat is commonly reported as carrying salmonella species, some of which are included in the top 10 human serotypes. However, there do not appear to have been any major food safety problems associated with its increasing usage as a human foodstuff. Crocodile meat is becoming a far more popular food product in this and other States as crocodile farming, a sound environmental measure, is adopted in north Queensland and the Northern Territory. Multiplication of salmonella and most other food spoilage and food poisoning organisms is inhibited at low temperatures. The sooner the product is refrigerated the better, as noted by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition about kangaroo meat. I raise the issue of salmonella and other food poisoning organisms because they have been mentioned extensively in a number of ill-informed letters from various organisations opposing the use of kangaroo meat for human consumption. The opportunity for salmonella and many other food poisoning organisms to contaminate meat is limited while the skin is still attached to the entire carcass.

Anyone who deals with meat knows that. To cause contamination of the final product, these organisms need to come into contact with the meat bled once the skin is removed through damage sites or once the meat is cut into joints to cause contamination of the final product. Chilling is probably most important immediately after skinning, gutting and particularly jointing of the carcass, which is when the ultimate product tends to become contaminated. The scientific evidence suggests that whilst the animal retains its skin, and that is not cut and the carcass is not jointed the risk of contamination is low. That applies to all animals killed for human consumption, whether cattle or kangaroos. We must remember that all large animals destined for human consumption do not land on the consumer's plate immediately after slaughtering. As we know, the time between slaughter and use of the meat is many days. Carcasses are hung for some time to allow the process of rigor mortis to be completed. The larger the animal, the longer it takes. Most warm parasites are also killed by cooking. It is a furphy to argue against consumption of kangaroo meat because of salmonella. Most of the salmonella strains found in kangaroo meat are found in other forms of meat, according to the briefings that I have received, and are eliminated with even mild forms of cooking, although the general principle applies that the longer the cooking process the more elimination of salmonella occurs.

The Hon. R. S. L. Jones: What about atypical tuberculosis?

The Hon. I. M. MACDONALD: I will get on to all of these matters. The Hon. R. S. L. Jones does not understand. It has also been suggested that somehow or other kangaroo meat has more parasites than other forms of meat. Parasitical infection of meat can be detected upon the meat's dressing for human consumption or, in many cases, can be eliminated by a level of cooking. Most warm parasites are killed by cooking. Chemical residues in the meat of wild shot kangaroos generally speaking are lower, and certainly not higher, than those in the meat of farm domestic livestock such as cattle. Chemical residues are another subject raised in this debate. All potential food hygiene problems can be eliminated by routine handling and cooking measures. It has been clearly demonstrated by all scientific data that normal cooking and inspection procedures will contain or eliminate problems. As long as there are adequate controls to ensure that kangaroo species are not in any way endangered by their harvesting for human food, there should be no genuine environmental concern. The Hon. R. S. L. Jones has expressed concern that kangaroo species should not be endangered in
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any way by culling. The National Parks and Wildlife Service has overriding powers to determine the level of kill and the Federal authorities have other powers to determine the extent of the kill. The valid concerns raised by the Hon. R. S. L. Jones are covered by the bill.

Culling will be limited according to the biological needs for the survival of the animal. Kangaroos are an environmentally friendly species compared with introduced, cloven-hoofed domestic livestock species. This is another point that the Hon. R. S. L. Jones should consider. Many of the species imported since 1788 to support Western human habitation of this continent create far greater environmental damage than kangaroos do. If kangaroo meat replaced some lamb and beef on the Australian consumer's plate, this would be an environmental plus. In the past year in Queensland it has been shown that substitution of kangaroo meat in the diet of meat eating Australians would improve the environmental standards of this country because kangaroos are environmentally friendly, as distinct from the type of animals I have such as cattle, which do considerable environmental damage. I would hope that the Hon. R. S. L. Jones would consider what one could call an environmental displacement program by which meat from culled kangaroos would reduce consumption of other red meat.

In some of the material I have received it is said that consumption of kangaroo meat would be a disgrace because we would be eating our national emblem. One of the documents I received asked whether kangaroos should be a living treasure or an economic resource and questioned whether we should be eating our national emblem. I do not see that there have been any problems for the Welsh in eating leeks over the last 1,000 years or for the French in eating roosters. They have invented many nice ways of eating their national emblem. Not only that, the Lebanese cut down their national treasure in bulk. Such emotional campaigns are a bit over the top. We have to harvest what resources we have in a sustainable way. We must ensure that kangaroos survive, but we must also be wary of emotional arguments to the effect that in no circumstances may we eat these so- called living treasures. If we have to cull kangaroos because of the competition between them and domestic animals, it is much better that the meat is used effectively and properly within our diet. It should not be left to rot on a dusty back road in western New South Wales. The Hon. R. S. L. Jones has raised the question of worms. Worms are destroyed by cooking. There are no worms in kangaroo meat; the lymph system of kangaroos harbours worms. In a CSIRO analysis of the lymph system of kangaroos, which I am happy to provide the Hon. R. S. L. Jones with later, it was concluded that an ordinary inspection would be sufficient to pick up an infestation of worms. In the more over-the-top material that I have received on recycled paper, people have confused other forms of worms with those that are in kangaroos. Feral pigs harbour trichonella worms in the flesh, which is a potential problem, but again decent cooking can eliminate trichonella worms and associated worm infestations.

Kangaroo meat contains formic acid, but that acts as a preservative. Kangaroos eat plants that tend to generate that acid, and they are not a problem. Kangaroo meat is evaluated in great detail in a major Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization study entitled "The fatty acids of kangaroo and wallaby meat" by Mr G. L. Ford and Mr A. C. Fogerty. The contrast with domesticated animals is stark and convincing. The authors of the study do not rely on emotional arguments but upon a scientific analysis of kangaroo meat and its suitability for human consumption. I am happy to give honourable members the opportunity to read this material. Another important matter is the type of guidelines which will be created for the proper handling and usage of kangaroo meat for human consumption. The Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs has been derelict in not explaining fully how the Government intends to regulate the production of kangaroo meat. I should like to take a few minutes to outline exactly what will occur in the proper handling of this meat.

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Recommendations were made to the New South Wales Minister for Health on the regulatory controls which should apply to kangaroo meat taken for human consumption. Those recommendations were compiled by an acknowledged expert in the human consumption of animal meat, Dr Paul Hopwood from the faculty of veterinary science at the University of Sydney. The recommendations are extensive. On page after page Dr Hopwood outlines the sorts of regulations that can be used for the proper handling of kangaroo meat from slaughter through to human consumption. Those regulations, which will be implemented, relate to such matters as the holding of a National Parks and Wildlife Service trapper's licence, having a minimum of one year's experience in kangaroo shooting for pet food and the completion of such courses in hygienic meat handling as stipulated by the New South Wales Department of Health. Ancillary to that is a TAFE course for kangaroo shooters which will detail at great length the regulations and rules relating to the shooting, handling and dressing of kangaroo meat for human consumption. I will not delay honourable members, but this document occupies 30-odd pages. It deals in great detail with how most of the problems relating to the human consumption of kangaroo meat should be handled. It deals also with some of the problems which will undoubtedly be raised by the Hon. R. S. L. Jones. The following appears on page 27:

subject to the disease status of local kangaroo population the following lymphocentres may need to be examined visually and by palpation. Where necessary the lymph nodes shall be incised:

with the carcass

The study then lists the various things one should look for and what one should deal with.

The Hon. D. F. Moppett: They are standard practices to detect infection.

The Hon. I. M. MACDONALD: Yes. I am sure the Hon. R. S. L. Jones will raise issues which were neglected to some extent in the other place. Those issues are dealt with in detail within the guidelines which will be issued by the New South Wales Minister for Health in relation to the provisions of the bill relating to kangaroo carcasses. Over the years a great deal of work has been done which demonstrates clearly that kangaroo meat is a healthy and low cholesterol meat. Given that the vast majority of Australians are meat eaters, undoubtedly the greater the number of Australians who can be encouraged to eat low cholesterol meat, such as kangaroo meat and Scottish highland cattle, the better. Undoubtedly the environmental concerns that will be raised by the Hon. R. S. L. Jones can be allayed provided that the National Parks and Wildlife Service correctly determines a realistic level of cull. It will be far better to use kangaroo meat for human consumption than to leave it to lie wasting on the ground. As the National Parks and Wildlife Service and the Department of Health have demonstrated, kangaroo meat can be used safely for human consumption. That has been demonstrated also in other States of this great land. The emotional issues must be left behind. This bill must be looked at in the light of cold hard clinical data. Honourable members should look forward to this resource being properly and sustainably managed for human consumption.

The Hon. R. T. M. BULL [10.56]: I should like to commence my contribution by congratulating the Hon. I. M. Macdonald on a well-researched speech. He showed a great deal of common sense and leadership. I only hope that he leads his peers across to this side of the Chamber when the House votes on this bill. He highlighted most of the fallacious arguments that have been advanced by the likes of the Hon. R. S. L. Jones during the three years that this bill has gone backwards and forwards between this House and the lower House. This is my third contribution to the same bill. I hope I do not use the same words, but the message is exactly the same. At both Federal and State levels
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there is bipartisan support for a kangaroo management program which maintains the kangaroo population while controlling its harmful effects on agricultural and pastoral lands. Such a program means that every year a number of kangaroos are culled. The kangaroo management program is accepted. The New South Wales Government has now introduced this bill to allow kangaroo meat for human consumption, which will allow better utilisation of the resource. Kangaroo meat is of such quality that it is only fit and proper that it be treated like the quality meat it is. Rendering the kangaroo a valuable animal in monetary terms will possibly do more for the conservation of the species than any other move the Government could make. The best way to ensure that no animal becomes extinct is to convert it into a highly valued resource.

Conservation groups have welcomed this move. The Land Conservation Council of New South Wales heralded the Government's decision to introduce this legislation as a major step forward in the conservation of all macropods. The kangaroo is finally being recognised as a valuable natural resource with intrinsic economic worth. Kangaroo meat is top tucker. It cooks easily, tastes great and has considerable dietary advantages over beef, lamb, chicken and even some seafoods. Mr President, from time to time you and I and a number of our colleagues have tried kangaroo meat in another State. It was a culinary delight. I recommend it to all honourable members. It cannot yet be eaten legally in New South Wales, but if honourable members have the opportunity to eat it interstate they will find that it is certainly a culinary delight. It comes from an animal which, unlike cows, sheep and other hard-hoofed beasts introduced into Australia, is environmentally non-destructive, as the Hon. I. M. Macdonald has pointed out. Vast tracts of land are dying or dead because they are being grazed by foreign animals which are ecologically unnatural. Indeed, this kind of land and animal management might be found to absolutely guarantee the survival of the kangaroo species. Kangaroos taken for human consumption will be taken from within the cull. No additional kangaroos will be taken. The passage of this bill will lead to better utilisation of the kangaroos taken from the cull. In New South Wales kangaroos are already harvested for pet food, skins and export meat for human consumption.

There are good health reasons for allowing human consumption of kangaroo meat. Kangaroo meat is reliably lean, low in fat, rich in iron and protein, and could be readily incorporated into cholesterol lowering diets. As with other wild meats, it is free from chemical residue. A return to a diet rich in kangaroo meat significantly reduces the risk of heart disease by lowering cholesterol. Heart disease is still the nation's number one killer. Nutritionists are keen to have kangaroo meat made available for human consumption because there is a complete absence of the major diseases or conditions associated with domestic animals. Kangaroo meat presents little or no danger to human health compared with other forms of meat and there are no public health reasons why it should not be considered as a viable alternative to meat from domestic animals. Kangaroo meat has been available in South Australia for 12 years and there has been not one incident of illness associated with its consumption.In the past seven years kangaroo meat for human consumption has been exported from New South Wales to Japan, the United States, the Netherlands, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Reunion Island, Papua New Guinea and the Middle East.

The bill will impose extremely stringent standards for the processing of kangaroo meat. In New South Wales kangaroo meat for human consumption will meet export standards which are among the highest in the world. The readiness of butchers to imply that kangaroo meat sold for human consumption might not meet the same standards of hygiene as other meats is no more than insinuation; they know that New South Wales and Federal controls will ensure that kangaroo meat sold for human consumption meets the
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high standards required for game exports. Disease levels in the wild kangaroo population were found to be very low, and in fact the incidence of disease in the wild kangaroo was lower than in our domestic animals, such as cattle, sheep and pigs. I believe that we should be proudly serving up this delicious red meat, which is a culinary delight, as our national game meat - not feeding it to the dogs.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES [11.2]: Honourable members should look at the furphy that the proposed legislation is just about kangaroo meat. Of course it is not just about kangaroo meat. The title refers to game meats and not kangaroo meat. That is the number one trap in the legislation. The definition on page 2 reads:

"game animal" means kangaroo and includes any other animal that the Minister, by order published in the Gazette, declares to be a game animal for the purposes of this Act.

When I raised this issue in public, the Minister said, "Oh, no, those other animals are protected animals". Of course, the kangaroo is a protected animal also. All native animals, apart from dingoes, are protected. No doubt the Minister intends to include other animals in an order published in the Government Gazette - possum and emu meat will probably be the next to be covered. We are not just talking about kangaroo meat today; we are talking about emu meat, possum meat and other meat - we do not yet know exactly what. In a press release I said that koala meat could possibly be next. I said it facetiously, though the editor of "Stay in Touch" thought I meant it. In theory, it would be possible for the Minister to publish an order in the Government Gazette declaring koalas to be game. The legislation does not prohibit that. The legislation will allow any native animal to be declared game.

Let me begin by knocking that furphy on the head. It is not just kangaroo meat that is involved but all native wildlife. I would say that, without question, if the legislation is passed, other animals will be added to the list and people will be surprised to find that they can eat possum meat and all sorts of other animals which are currently protected native wildlife. As usual when wildlife is involved, an industry will develop. I have been around the world more times than I can recount and have seen the impact on wildlife populations of their use for human consumption, whether that use be for their skins for leather or whatever. Animal after animal, fish after fish and bird after bird have been brought to the edge of extinction through commercialisation. I spoke to a very old man, now deceased, a World War I veteran, who told me about the numbers of herrings which were once washed up from the North Sea. It was one of the most abundant fish in the North Sea - a plague of herrings, one might say, because every wild animal is declared to exist in plague proportions - and now they are very scarce. Fishermen are fighting over the last few remaining herrings.

In America one hundred years ago there were literally billions of passenger pigeons - in 1870 there were approximately six billion passenger pigeons in America. It was a game bird. The hunters used to fire their guns just into the air and bring down 10 or 20 birds at one time. By 1917 the passenger pigeon, one of the most abundant birds on earth, was extinct - totally gone from the face of the earth. The same thing is happening in respect of the whales that swim past our shores. Recently, I went to Hervey Bay to see some of the remnants of the whale population. In just 10 short years until 1962, 99.9 per cent of all whales passing the Australian coastline were killed because they were a free resource; they belonged to no one. The same thing happened to the ocelot in the Amazon jungle. When I was a young man they were very common. Now they are an endangered species. This has happened to animal after animal, including the elephant. When I went to Africa there were plenty of elephants; now they
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are on the endangered list. All wildlife, when treated in this manner, being a free resource inevitably is overharvested. Kangaroos have been overharvested from time to time in the past 40 years. In the early 1960s Jack Absalom sold his rights to harvesting kangaroos at Broken Hill, because he had shot out the red kangaroo in that area. Australia is just coming through one of the worst droughts in the past 60 years. Honourable members from country areas will be aware of that - I am certainly aware of it.

The Hon. J. R. Johnson: So am I.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: The honourable member is aware of it and other members of the House may be aware that Australia is experiencing the country's worst drought in 60 years. I believe that Bob Hawke claimed credit for breaking the 1982-83 drought during the March 1983 election campaign. When that drought broke by the end of March the population of kangaroos, as counted in July 1983, had dropped by some 30 per cent or 40 per cent. The National Parks and Wildlife Service conducts aerial surveys. Those surveys are very inaccurate - and it admits they are used only as a guide - but they can tell the trends in the population. The service knows that it cannot get precise figures; it cannot possibly count the kangaroos. It uses the Graeme Caughley correction factor for determining the number of kangaroos. We have looked at the science of that system time and again, looking at models and population counts on the ground. It is quite clear that the Caughley correction factor for red kangaroos overestimates the red kangaroo population by approximately double. Likewise, the Caughley correction factor, which is still used by the National Parks and Wildlife Service, underestimates the population of grey kangaroos. One of the reasons for that is that red kangaroos are far more visible than grey kangaroos, obviously because they are open plains kangaroos and they are larger, and grey kangaroos tend to congregate at the treeline and are less visible.

The Caughley correction factor is used in respect of both groups but there is no question that the red kangaroo population has been overestimated time and again. That is the group that was in trouble some years ago. Mr Justice Murphy, at the time when he was Minister for Customs in 1973, placed a prohibition on the export of kangaroos to help save the red kangaroo, which was being overharvested at the time. The Minister in his second reading speech - I asked him to read it; it was written for him, of course - spoke about the rising kangaroo population, and the fact that the increase in the kangaroo population was due to sustained above average rainfall. The speech was written before kangaroo population figures were available for this year. The Hon. L. D. W. Coleman spoke some nonsense about there being nine million red kangaroos, or some outrageously ridiculous figure. The red kangaroo population is nowhere near nine million today. I have a fax which emanates from the National Parks and Wildlife Service dated 29th September. It lists the proposed kangaroo quotas for 1993 for New South Wales. The fax talks about an aerial survey carried out over most of the western plains of New South Wales between June and August 1992, which shows decreases of between 40 per cent and 80 per cent in the numbers of red and grey kangaroos respectively over the past 12 months. The estimated number of kangaroos in that area was approximately 3.38 million reds and four million greys; the greys being made up of 2.68 million eastern greys and 1.32 million western greys.

A quick mathematical calculation reveals a 2.6 million population drop in just 12 months. The figure coincides with the 1982, 1983 and 1984 figures. It follows the same graph, but regrettably this year the population drop will be steeper. The drought did not reach its full intensity until September, after these surveys had been carried out,
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and though these animals tend to remain alive in drought conditions for quite some time, suddenly large numbers of them die. They become so emaciated and weak that one can virtually walk up to them and push them over. We knew that they were going to die in large numbers. The population had been building up to what it was in 1982 - nine million odd. In two years the drought reduced the population by 66 per cent. I have no doubt that these aerial surveys will estimate that the kangaroo population this time next year will be no more than four million to 4.5 million in total. I could almost guarantee that this will be the case. The total population will be exacerbated by the level of legal and illegal killing and road kills. One member spoke about having seen for the first time kangaroos by the roadside. He does not seem to be aware that in times of drought kangaroos go to the roadside in search of feed. They do not go there by choice; they go there in desperation. Equally, during times of drought, for aerial surveys kangaroos are more visible on the ground, in particular the red kangaroo. The usual overestimation is double because they are far more visible during the day when looking for food.

The proposed quota for next year of the kangaroo population, which has been reduced by 2.6 million, is 1,665,500 kangaroos, comprising 598,800 reds, 748,500 eastern greys, 316,300 western greys and about 23,000 wallaroos. This year the percentage of the population of eastern and western greys to be so-called culled will be close to 30 per cent of the entire kangaroo population. Though the kangaroo population growth has dropped by 8 per cent, a considerable proportion of the remaining population is to be culled. This is not really a culling program. It is actually a population reduction program. A former Western Lands commissioner informed me that he wanted to reduce the kangaroo population in western New South Wales by 80 per cent, because they were causing problems. That was his aim. The other day it was announced that there will be a record wheat crop this year. Surely it would be impossible for there to be a record wheat crop when we have had so many problems with kangaroos?

One rarely, if ever, hears of actual crop losses caused by kangaroos. Usually the losses are caused by drought and not by kangaroos. Where there are problems with kangaroos in, say, wheat growing areas, often farmers plant perimeter crops for kangaroos to eat. I have visited a number of properties where farmers do that; they live with their kangaroos. Unfortunately the majority of farmers regard wildlife as pests. Two kangaroos on a property are regarded as a plague. A German farmer in the Narrandera area who recently came to this country is getting four times the yield of his neighbours because he is using organic techniques to farm. He does not use sprays. He is selling his animals in Germany at twice the price because they are organically raised. They are not drenched or sprayed with chemicals in any way. He does not shoot his kangaroos. He has a number of kangaroos on his property but he never shoots them, yet he gets four times the yield of his neighbours. His neighbours ask him, "How are you making so much money?" He was not a farmer before he came to this country three years ago. He loves the Australian wildlife and regards kangaroos as marvellous creatures. He does not think of them as pests as Australian farmers do. His neighbours still shoot kangaroos on their properties. They regard two or three kangaroos as a plague. He has told me how his neighbours shoot eagles and kill snakes. He does not do that on his wildlife reserve of 2,000 or 3,000 acres. The same problem exists up north where people shoot virtually anything that moves.

It is fitting that this legislation has been introduced by a National Party Minister. National Party members are anti-wildlife and would like to clear most of the Australian wildlife out of the country. They automatically regard wildlife as pests. They think of two or three wild animals as a plague, but 2,000 or 3,000 overstocked sheep as good profit. The Roy Morgan Research Centre, which is about the only research centre I
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respect - but which has now moved from the Bulletin unfortunately - conducted a survey on whether kangaroo meat for human consumption should be legal or illegal. They asked 1,833 men and women aged 14 years and over throughout Australia their opinion on kangaroo meat. People surveyed were told first, "As you might know in all States, except South Australia, it is not legal to sell kangaroo meat for human consumption". They were then asked, "In your opinion, should selling kangaroo meat for human consumption be legal or not?" The survey showed that 38 per cent of Australians 14 and over believed that selling kangaroo meat for human consumption should be legal; 56 per cent believed it should be illegal, and 6 per cent could not say.

It is interesting to note the different responses of the men and women. Remember that there are more men parliamentarians than women parliamentarians in this Chamber. Of those surveyed, 49 per cent of men believed that it should be legal and 46 per cent of men believed it should not be legal, whereas 28 per cent of women, who are far more sensitive to these issues, said it should be legal and 66 per cent said it should not be legal. Woman have a degree more sensitivity than men. Women do not go to war, for example. They are the ones who tend to nurture whereas the men tend to be the hardcore killers in society. The men are the ones who have the guns, not the women. It is interesting to examine the analysis by age groups. The age group 14 to 19 are more environmentally aware and sensitive of wildlife issues than older males; 28 per cent of 14-year-olds to 19-year-olds said that the selling of kangaroo meat for human consumption should be legal and 70 per cent said it should not be legal. There is a clear age bias. In the 20 to 29 age group, 42 per cent said it should be legal and 54 per cent said it should not be legal. Of the 30 to 49 age group, which is more representative of the age group in this Chamber, 43 per cent said it should be legal and 51 per cent said it should not be legal. Nevertheless, throughout all the age groups the majority of Australians - a ratio of almost two to one - said the selling of kangaroo meat for human consumption should not be legal. Though members of this House are in favour of the legislation - and National Party members, who are notorious for their anti-wildlife, redneck attitudes, have spoken in favour of it - the community in the real world, where the voters are, is opposed to it.

The Hon. J. F. Ryan: Did the honourable member analyse the figures for people who live in rural areas?

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I will come to that in a minute. The survey also asked, "If the law was changed to make it legal to sell kangaroo meat for human consumption, would you eat kangaroo meat - regularly, occasionally, just to try it or never?" Only 3 per cent of Australians aged 14 and over would eat kangaroo meat regularly if the law were changed to make it legal, and I think most of those are members of the National Party; 14 per cent would eat kangaroo meat occasionally; 27 per cent would eat kangaroo meat just to try it; 53 per cent would never eat kangaroo meat; and 3 per cent would not say. It is interesting to note the various biases between men and women: 5 per cent of men would eat kangaroo meat regularly - the real macho, gun-toting males who like to eat red meat and probably eat kangaroo meat raw because they think it is macho; 20 per cent would eat it occasionally; and 31 per cent would just try it for fun. A total of 56 per cent would try it, but only 5 per cent of men and women would eat it regularly. A similar bias is evident among women: only 2 per cent would eat kangaroo meat regularly, 8 per cent would eat it occasionally, 24 per cent would try it for the experience and 63 per cent would never eat it. In South Australia, 5 per cent would eat kangaroo meat regularly and 15 per cent would eat it occasionally. Even in South Australia, where it is legal to eat kangaroo meat, very few people eat it for cultural reasons, health reasons, wildlife reasons or for numerous other reasons.


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The Hon. J. F. Ryan: What about in the country?

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: The Hon. J. F. Ryan has just asked me about the difference between the country and the city. Now that he has raised that question, I feel obliged to put it on the record.

The PRESIDENT: Order! I am sure the Hon. R. S. L. Jones's contribution will be expedited if there are fewer interjections.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: You might well be right, Mr President - the fewer the interjections, the fewer I will have to reply to. I do not have a survey comparing the figures for the consumption of kangaroo meat; I do have a survey carried out by the Roy Morgan Research Centre on the exportation of kangaroo and wallaby meat and skins, which is relevant in that it shows the different attitudes of people living in the country and those who live in the city. Surprisingly, country people were more opposed to the export of kangaroo meat and skins than city people. Can honourable members believe that? I will not go into the detail of the figures; I do not want to bore honourable members. The extensive Roy Morgan Research Centre survey showed that more country people than city people were opposed to the export of kangaroo meat. That is quite fascinating. The Hon. I. M. Macdonald gave a superficially researched speech - if he had spent a bit more time working on it, perhaps he would have discovered a few more facts. He obviously believes the propaganda put about by a well-known professor with whom I have had a few run-ins - I will not name him in Parliament because he is a decent human being; it is just that some of his views are misguided. The honourable member has obviously picked up the professor's ideas in total and swallowed them hook, line and salmonella. On an earlier occasion I spoke on this issue for an hour-and-a-quarter. I was hoping that I would not have to speak at such length again, but so much misinformation has been put on the record that, unfortunately, I will have to correct it. I wish I did not have to do that. I draw to the attention of honourable members W. E. Poole's Management of Kangaroo Harvesting in Australia, which was published by the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization. We all know that W. E. Poole is an expert on kangaroos. With respect to hydatids, he stated:

These occur in kangaroos, but due to their two-stage life cycle, which require a canine host, are unlikely to be transmitted directly from kangaroos to humans. In this respect the feeding of raw kangaroo meat to dogs is more dangerous.

He referred also to 1080 baiting, which has not been referred to by any member. He stated:

Poison baiting with 1080 is widespread, and kangaroos are among the animals affected. It is possible for a poisoned kangaroo to travel some distance before dying. It may be that poisoned kangaroos could end up in the meat supply, with adverse consequences.

These are the words of a scientist, not a greenie or a feral person. He also spoke about salmonella, and I will return to that in a moment. He stated further:

The presence of salmonella bacteria in large numbers of kangaroos is well established. There have been cases of salmonella poisoning from eating kangaroo meat in humans both in Europe and Australia . . .

He stated that ante-mortem inspection is impossible. He referred to bacteria which breed in the internal organs. Theoretically, kangaroos should be head-shot but in practice may be shot in the gut or chest cavity, spreading bacteria throughout the meat of the kangaroo. The time between shooting and chilling of the carcass may be long enough to allow
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bacteria to breed. The difficulty of providing adequate or, indeed, any supervision in the field exacerbates the above factors. The Biology of Marsupials, edited by B. Stonehouse and D. Gilmore, published by the Macmillan Press Limited, London, lists diseases in kangaroos. It refers to coccidia occurring in both red and grey kangaroos, filarioids, trichonematids, trichostrongylids, strongyloidids, and toxoplasma. Other diseases include white muscle disease and lumpy jaw. Graeme Caughley, an important scientist who is used by the National Parks and Wildlife Service federally and in this State, has conducted many surveys from the air and is quoted by many. His book, Kangaroos: Their Ecology and Management in the Sheep Rangelands of Australia, published by the Cambridge University Press, states:

Meat for human consumption is primarily exported as game meat. Between about 1955 and 1969 the exporting of game meat was closed down by importing countries for several reasons including poor meat quality, high salmonella contamination, contamination by vegetation and dirt, and infestation by the parasite Dirofilaria roemeri.

The export trade resumed in 1980 . . .

Honourable members may remember the big scandal, particularly in Victoria, about meat substitution and also the Woodward royal commission into the Australian meat industry. A few days ago I caused a question to be asked in the Senate about the Woodward royal commission report because appendix H, which has been suppressed for 10 years, reveals a number of individuals and companies engaged in illegal trade and export trade; they substituted kangaroo meat for beef, which brought the American trade to a considerable decline for quite a long period. It cost this country tens of millions of dollars. There was a big scandal about it 10 years ago. The individuals and organisations that were involved in the illegal trade then are still the principal people involved in the trade today. Tim Moore, when he was the shadow Minister for the environment, told me in his office that he had a file of people involved in the illegal kangaroo trade. He said he would reveal the information when he became a Minister. We waited and waited; and I asked him repeatedly about it, but it was never revealed. Appendix H has never been made public; it would have been made public except for an agreement between New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland and the Federal Government. It will not be made public until all of those mentioned have been prosecuted and all criminal actions have ceased. The information has not been revealed after 10 years. I can tell the House that I have seen a leaked copy of appendix H - I am one of the few people in the country to have seen it. The same people are involved in the trade today. Unwittingly the Government is assisting organised crime in this country, people engaged in illegal activities. I have talked to these people; I know who they are. They are in Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria. The Government is pandering to the same people who will be involved in this very dirty trade. I would like to quote two other scientists, H. J. Frith and J. H. Calaby, who in their publication entitled Kangaroos, published by F. W. Cheshire Publishing, stated:

Kangaroos contract and contain numerous diseases and endoparasites. Diseases include pneumonia, tetanus, salmonellosis and various mycotic, protozoal, and helminth infections.

Endoparasites, including worms, such as Labiiostrongylus longispicularis, bot flies (Tracheomyia macropi), coccidia (Eimeria spp) and other Protozoa, cestoda and Nematoda, Nocardiosis or lumpy jaw and coccidiosis have also been found in kangaroos.

The Hon. J. H. Jobling: They are found in just about every other animal.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: The honourable member can eat them; I do not have to. The Medical Journal of Australia published an article in October 1964 which was quite revealing:


Page 9153

During the period 1960-1964, a number of unusual salmonella were isolated from human sources with increasing frequency, in the Salmonella Reference laboratory, Adelaide. There is little doubt that kangaroo meat, sold as pet-food, constitutes a serious danger to public health if the observed degree with salmonella is allowed to continue.

These are unusual salmonella; not your usual salmonella. In the second edition of Food Microbiology, a McGraw-Hill publication, an article by W. C. Fraxier stated:

Methods for the detection of disease or disease organisms are often laborious, difficult, unreliable and the tests are usually too impractical to apply to meat animals at the packing plant and cannot be applied to food handlers as often as desired.

We should remember that these animals are being killed at night and some distance from the processing plant. I have been on kangaroo shoots, and I am sure other members have also. I would not be surprised if some members had even shot kangaroos. We know how they are shot and gutted on the spot, with their heads and tails chopped off. Kangaroo shooters are certainly an unusual breed of people, very different from other people I have met. They do this for a living - but I am not knocking that. There is no way that the people I have met - and I have met probably 80 or 90 kangaroo shooters now - could be controlled. One might say that they are a very individual breed. A book should be written about them. They are a very interesting bunch of people. Maybe one will be written one day. Karen Hobson wrote an article in the Canberra Times on 8th December, 1988, discussing the problem of hydatids.

[Interruption]

We have to make sure that Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile knows that there are more problems than are revealed by the Government.

The Hon. B. H. Vaughan: Just sit down.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: Just be patient. We are talking about millions of animals.

The DEPUTY-PRESIDENT (The Hon. Dr Marlene Goldsmith): Order!

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: Thank you, Madam Deputy-President. They are a rowdy mob tonight. It has been said that no more kangaroos will be killed. It is true that the quota will not rise as a result of this legislation unless the kangaroo industry applies pressure. In 1983, when the kangaroo population dropped considerably, the kangaroo quota did not drop. The quota is much higher today than then; it is three times what it was then. The quota did not drop when the population had already crashed, and it is the same situation now. As the Minister for the Environment and the Director of National Parks and Wildlife have been alerted to what is going on, perhaps they will bring the quota down to a reasonable figure. The fact is that the kangaroos used for human consumption are not the same as those used for animal consumption in the form of pet food. There are two quite distinct and separate markets. Kangaroos shot for their skins mainly, with meat as a by-product, have their skins sent mostly to Italy or Japan, with a few going to local markets. Kangaroo meat is usually used for animal food. There is very little skin-only shooting in New South Wales; there is a lot more in Queensland, where carcasses are left to rot. There is a problem with flies there.

The kangaroos used for human consumption are young kangaroos, preferably young tasty females. Invariably, if they are old enough - 18 months old - they will have joeys both in the pouch and at foot. Not one animal is being killed but three. I guess that would not matter to the Minister for Planning. The situation is not as simple and
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straightforward as the Government would have us believe. Animals will be killed. Some information is coming from South Australia about problems there. I fear how many animals are left in various species. There has been publicity by the meat industry, including by butcher shops, in headline articles revealing their concern about selling kangaroo meat. The industry has largely opposed the introduction of kangaroo meat for consumption, although there are two or three shops and restaurants in Sydney selling kangaroo meat illegally at the moment - and without any retribution.

The Hon. J. H. Jobling: Name them.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES: I will name them if you want. The meat used for human consumption in South Australia is not inspected in any of the 80 slaughterhouses. Only export kangaroo meat is inspected. This information came from an official of the health department in South Australia. At present near Roxby and Beverley uranium mines, kangaroos are drinking from rivers contaminated by radioactive waste. These same kangaroos end up in the human consumption market. There is certainly no testing for radioactivity. Fortunately that problem will not be so relevant to New South Wales, but meat for human consumption in this State will be coming from South Australia, at least initially. Those who eat kangaroo meat might end up getting cancer. That might be karma. The Ku-ring-gai council wildflower gardens, Ultimo food store and several French restaurants in New South Wales are selling kangaroo meat illegally. Nothing is being done about this, I guess in anticipation of this legislation being passed. The honourable member for Manly spoke about the recommendations of Dr Hopwood, who is from the University of Sydney. What Dr Hopwood is proposing is being watered down. I could speak at length on this but I do not intend to do so tonight, as I spoke for 1¼ hours last time; but I would like to remind members of what has happened in the past, because history tends to repeat itself. In 1991 there was a large headline in the Herald-Sun, "Meat Crime Probe". Another headline read, "Victoria centre of roo scam".

I shall read that again. An article in the Sun of 23rd January, 1987, carried a headline "Victoria centre of roo scam". The Herald-Sun of 25th September, 1981, carried an article with the headline "Meat Crime Probe". On 25th July, 1992, articles in the Age had the headlines "Griffiths vows to clean up meat industry", "Meat rackets exposed" and "Police report exposes crime networks in meat industry". Criminals will be assisted by the Government through the passing of the proposed legislation and also by the Hon. I. M. Macdonald, unwittingly, who does not know what is going on behind the scenes. The Age of 24th July carried the headline "Meat rackets exposed" and the following day ran an editorial under the heading "Something rotten in the meat industry". The editorial stated:

Ten years after a federal royal commission confirmed widespread bribery and corruption in the meat industry and rackets involving the substitution of kangaroo, donkey and horse meat for the beef and lamb, the main changes have been for the worse. The Australian Bureau of Criminal Intelligence has discovered two extremely disturbing developments. One is that many of the "businessmen" involved in this racketeering are still active in the domestic and export meat industry.

I shall make that Age editorial available to members; if they want to get hold of appendix H to the Woodward royal commission report, good luck to them; I have been trying to get it for 10 years. The proposed legislation is misleading in that it applies to more than just kangaroos. The kangaroo meat for human consumption industry cannot be controlled - it never has been and never will be. Tremendous scandals occurred in Germany, Holland and England over the substitution of kangaroo and donkey meat. The import wharf at Hamburg was closed as a result of container loads of contaminated kangaroo meat for human consumption arriving there. The person who sent that infected
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meat to Hamburg, causing the import wharf to be closed down, is still one of the key people in the kangaroo meat industry. The kangaroo population cannot be counted exactly. New South Wales has been experiencing the worst drought for 60 years and the kangaroo population has crashed by 2.6 million. I bet anything that by this time next year the kangaroo population will be much lower than its present level. The proposed legislation, if passed, will facilitate that population decline. Breeding females will be killed. The bill should be thrown out lock, stock and barrel.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE [11.43]: I support the Meat Industry (Game Meat) Amendment Bill 1992. The object of the bill is to amend the Meat Industry Act 1978 to enable the processing and sale of game meat, including kangaroo meat, for human consumption. At present kangaroo meat may be sold only as animal food. The bill will also amend the National Parks and Wildlife Act 1974 to provide that a fauna dealer's licence is not required for the retail sale of game meat. Reference has been made in debate to the bill having been introduced and rejected at the first vote. So far as I am aware no vote has previously been taken on the bill. I share with the Hon. Elaine Nile a number of reservations about the object of the bill. Many of those concerns have been discussed over a long period of time with the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs and various officers; and a number of those concerns have now been resolved. In a statement during earlier debate on the Aboriginal issue I described the most powerful influence on the Call to Australia group's attitude to the bill. I said that our organisation puts great weight upon the advice it receives from the Aboriginal community. We have been advised and urged by the New South Wales Aboriginal Land Council to support the bill. The chairperson of the New South Wales Aboriginal Land Council, Manuel Ritchie, in a letter to me dated 28th September stated:

Dear Fred,

I am writing to you on behalf of the 13,500 Aboriginal people that our organisation represents in New South Wales, to explain to you the importance of the proposed Bill to our communities around the state.

The kangaroo, as you know, is a traditional food of the Aboriginal people, and we have continued to hunt and eat it over the last 200 years since white colonisation, despite considerable interference by farmers and the government.

Following the contribution by the Hon. R. S. L. Jones, I might add "and the Australian Democrats":

With the progress of pastoralism across New South Wales and the ecological destruction that has followed there is now a recognised kangaroo problem.

Today, Aboriginal people would like to harvest and market their own traditional food in recognised commercial enterprises. As a commercial venture kangaroo meat is very viable for our communities because it is something many young Aboriginal men can do and are doing anyway. It is also a good lean meat unique to Australia which if marketed properly by visible Aboriginal people, could become accepted by the general population both here and overseas.

With a little more planning, co-ordination and investment in plant and capital the kangaroo meat industry could contribute much to the establishment of self-determination for many communities, especially in the far west.

We strongly support any opportunity for the Aboriginal people of this State to exercise self-determination. Mr Ritchie goes on to say:

With access to both our own land (commercial properties and uncleared land), National

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parks and crown land or private lands, we have plenty of opportunities to harvest kangaroos for commercial purposes.

The New South Wales Aboriginal Land Council is currently undertaking a feasibility study on the proposed industry and will send you a copy of this when it is completed.

We therefore hope you will support the proposed Bill in the upper house so that it becomes law. Thank you for your time.

Yours sincerely

Manuel Ritchie, Chairperson, NSWALC.

Aboriginal communities, especially those in the Far West, do not have many opportunities for employment. The bill will provide an opportunity and perhaps also an opportunity to undertake an activity that is very much part of their culture and not foreign to them at all. As the letter indicated, Aboriginal people hunted kangaroos long before the first white settlers arrived in Australia. In fact, at the beginning of white settlement Aboriginal people who had freely hunted kangaroos were confused by the reaction of pastoralists or farmers to the hunting of their cattle, sheep or cows. At that time the Aboriginal people thought that farmers' animals on the plains were fair game for them to hunt. That misconception often led to a strong overreaction by farmers and in the early years to the death of many Aboriginal men taking part in what they thought were perfectly legitimate activities. That background is a strong factor in the approach to the bill by the Call to Australia group. We urge the Government, if the bill is passed, to ensure that the Aboriginal people are allowed to be involved in the kangaroo meat industry in this State, and indeed have preference of employment. Aboriginal land councils have large funds from land tax that can be invested in viable industries. Aboriginal people should be assisted, as the letter suggests, if they wish to develop a viable kangaroo meat industry. Aboriginal leaders in this State do not suggest that one or two Aboriginal men should go out and hunt kangaroo. Through the financial strength of the land councils, Aborigines have access to millions of dollars to purchase vehicles for hunting and transportation of kangaroo meat to processing centres.

I propose that Aborigines should have an opportunity to market kangaroo meat so that young Aboriginal people could become involved in both wholesale and retail marketing in the kangaroo meat industry. That approach would make the proposal far more acceptable to the Australian community and to the people of New South Wales. As I said, we have discussed a number of matters with the Minister and his advisers and representatives of various specialised bodies who are concerned about this issue. The amendments that we have now developed would improve the legislation and remove some of its stumbling blocks. One of our original concerns - the Hon. R. S. L. Jones referred to this - was that schedule 1 states that a game animal is a kangaroo or other animal declared to be a game animal by the Minister. Obviously, that would allow the Minister in future to declare other animals as game animals. We do not believe the Minister should have such a blank cheque. A separate bill should be introduced if there is a proposal to declare other animals as game animals for human consumption. I foreshadow an amendment to delete reference to any other animal as a game animal under this bill. It will be confined to kangaroo meat which results from culling operations.

A concern of some groups is the unnecessary slaughter of kangaroos. The bill as it will be amended, and the regulations, will restrict kangaroo meat for human consumption in accordance with figures authorised by the National Parks and Wildlife


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Service under the direction of the Federal Government, which is apparently present policy. It is difficult for city people - we were city dwellers but we are now living on the South Coast - to comprehend the numbers of kangaroo populations and the quotas. The New South Wales quota must be approved each year by the Federal Minister for the Environment. The Australian Labor Party Opposition can be assured that there is that system of checks and balances. It can be assumed that the Federal Minister would check the figures. The Hon. R. S. L. Jones questioned whether the figures were accurate and asked about the resources used to ensure that the numbers are based on fact, so far as fact can be established in assessing the number of kangaroos in a State.

I was amazed that in 1986 the New South Wales kangaroo population was more than four and a half million and the quota was half a million. The harvest was just under half a million. In 1987 the population of kangaroos had risen to nearly five and a half million and the quota was 577,000. In 1988 the population had risen to 5,498,000 and the quota was 730,000. In 1989 the population was 7,582,000 and the quota was 804,000. In 1990 the population was 8,550,000 and the quota was 1,172,000. In 1991 the population was 9,110,000 and the quota was 1,520,000. The estimated New South Wales kangaroo population in 1992 is more than 10 million and the quota is 2,074,000. The Hon. R. S. L. Jones stated earlier that very few people would eat kangaroo meat because people do not like it. If that is the case, this bill will not cause a problem. The culling quota is designed to save the natural conditions and to avoid destruction of the environment from overgrazing by kangaroos. Therefore, I presume, it will save the lives of the surviving kangaroos. Only a very small percentage of the two million culled kangaroos would be used for human consumption. We will have to see how the situation develops in the future.

This is a controversial issue and some groups have strong views. We saw reports of the raid - almost a terrorist raid - on the office of the Forestry Commission. Government files were broken into and the files were shown on television. Documents were removed - whether they were removed permanently or simply photocopied and returned. These actions raise serious questions about some of the groups involved in the issue. I have proposed to the Minister - and he has accepted - that there should be an advisory committee to supervise the functioning of the legislation to ensure that it is not just set in concrete tonight in a form which people may not be happy with. From the bill's adoption a constant review process will be in place. I have prepared a very detailed amendment, the main point of which is that there will be constant review and a report to the Parliament on the findings of the advisory committee in regard to the operation of the bill and whether any of the fears raised tonight have been justified. The committee would include a range of people, with representatives from the Department of Health, the National Parks and Wildlife Service, the Meat Industry Authority, the Department of Agriculture and other resource people with technical knowledge on the subject. The committee will be a valuable asset and it should reduce the fears about the operation of the bill. It will provide an avenue to monitor whether problems eventuate.

The Hon. I. M. Macdonald referred to matters being covered in regulations and making certain that there is no abuse, knowingly or accidentally. I would like an assurance from the Government that the regulations will require all shooters of kangaroos for human consumption to complete a 10-week technical and further education course to qualify for a licence. This would be in addition to existing requirements of the National Parks and Wildlife Service. Shooters will be required to inspect each carcass for body condition, skin disease and discharges. If the carcass is not satisfactory it must be downgraded to pet food use or condemned. All shooters' vans will be enclosed and licensed in accordance with the requirements of the Meat Industry Authority. All
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carcasses must be inspected by the Australian Quarantine Inspection Service for disease and stomach contents. This will apply if the meat is for consumption in this State or for export. Kangaroo meat on public sale will be subject to normal Department of Health inspection at point of sale. The requirements that I am asking the Government to include in the regulations concerning kangaroo meat for human consumption are more stringent than those applying to the meat we now consume - lamb, beef, pork and so on.

As other speakers have said, if there is a cull of more than two million kangaroos and only a percentage of those are used for pet food, obviously a great deal of kangaroo meat is presently being left to rot in the outback. The fears of those who are distressed as much as farmers by such scenes must be allayed. Because of the low sale prices being obtained for farm animals, farmers have found it impossible to pay the costs of transporting sheep and cattle to markets. The sale prices they receive are less than the transportation costs. Some farmers have said that they cannot even afford to pay for the bullets they use to shoot the animals. There must be some way in which that surplus food can be used for the benefit of the needy people in this State and overseas. If it is used to feed such people, the question is: who pays for it? Domestic cattle and sheep are also shot but they are usually buried in trenches in the outback. If two million kangaroos are shot and the majority are left to rot into the ground, there must be some way of getting that surplus food to areas such as Somalia where people are starving. The inability to do that has always puzzled and distressed me greatly. I am sure other honourable members feel the same way. It is not so much a question of overpopulation; the food seems to be in one place, the needy people in another, and the two do not seem to be able to be brought together. I hope the Government will bear that in mind.

As well as providing an opportunity for the human consumption of kangaroo meat in this State, the bill will lead to the further development of Australia's export markets and thus help decrease Australia's overseas debt and assist to resolve other financial problems caused by the recession, now a depression, which has resulted from Mr Keating's policies. The other points are covered by the amendments I propose to move. To repeat several points that have been made earlier, kangaroo meat has been available for human consumption in South Australia and Tasmania for some years with no reported problems; kangaroo meat for retail sale will be subject to strict health controls; it will be packed in sealed plastic bearing the processor's name and will be clearly labelled as kangaroo game meat. That will help consumers to know exactly where they stand. I foreshadow amendments which will seek to establish an advisory committee, to clarify that the bill relates only to kangaroos as game animals and no other animals, and to provide that any animals used for human consumption will come from the cull set initially under the authority of the Federal Minister for the Environment and supported by the State Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs. With those words about the condition of the regulations, including the points I have outlined, and subject to the amendments being accepted by the Government - and I understand they will be - Call to Australia supports the bill.

The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER (Minister for Planning, and Minister for Housing) [12.3 a.m.], in reply: On behalf of the Government I thank those honourable members who contributed to the debate, particularly the Hon. R. T. M. Bull and the Hon. L. D. W. Coleman. Although the Deputy Leader of the Opposition and the Hon. I. M. Macdonald claimed that they opposed the bill, they appeared to me to speak in support of it. I understand there was considerable debate in the Labor caucus about whether the bill should be supported or opposed. It is unfortunate that the reactionary forces of the left came to the fore on this issue. However, I thank the Deputy Leader of the Opposition and the Hon. I. M. Macdonald for their worthwhile contributions. I thank
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also Reverend the Hon. F. J. Nile for his positive commonsense approach to this controversial issue. The Hon. R. S. L. Jones completely bewildered the House with his confused and bizarre contribution to the debate. Not only was his contribution inaccurate, ill informed and long winded, it was also one of the most turgid diatribes I have ever heard in this House.

The Hon. R. S. L. Jones: The Minister fell asleep.

The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER: My attention was momentarily diverted. Unfortunately, the Hon. R. S. L. Jones did not properly brief himself before he used what was obviously photocopied propaganda from a source which, of course, he did not name. He then proceeded to make a series of outlandish claims and to introduce a whole series of unsubstantiated red herrings. He quoted unnamed people. Generally speaking, he lowered the tone of debate in this House. I do not want to deal with too much of what he said because not only was he unable to pronounce the names of most of the diseases and worms to which he referred but also most of them were irrelevant to the debate. This issue has been on foot for a long time. An enormous amount of work has been done by my colleague the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs, his staff and departmental staff. It has taken a long time and a great deal of work to get this legislation to the stage where it will now become law. As someone who has legally eaten and enjoyed kangaroo meat, as someone who understands the kangaroo problem in Australia, and as someone who understands the positive effect this legislation will have on the kangaroo species and, indeed, the nation, I commend the bill to the House.

Question - That this bill be now read a second time - put.

The House divided.

Mr Bull
Mrs Chadwick
Mrs Evans
Mrs Forsythe
Mr Gay
Dr Goldsmith
Mr Hannaford

Mr Jobling
Mr Moppett
Mr Mutch
Mrs Nile
Revd F. J. Nile
Mr Ryan
Mr Samios


Mrs Sham-Ho
Mr Rowland Smith
Mr Webster

Tellers,
Mr Coleman
Miss Gardiner
Noes,18

Dr Burgmann
Ms Burnswoods
Mr Dyer
Mr Egan
Mr Enderbury
Mrs Isaksen
Mr Johnson

Mr Kaldis
Miss Kirkby
Mrs Kite
Mr Manson
Mr Obeid
Mr O'Grady
Mrs Symonds

Mr Vaughan
Mrs Walker


Tellers,
Mr Jones
Mr Macdonald
Pairs

Dr Pezzutti
Mr Pickering

Mrs Arena
Mr Shaw

Page 9160

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Motion agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee

Clause 4

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE [12.16 a.m.]: I move:

Page 2. After line 13, insert:
Review of amendments made by this Act
5. (1) The Minister is to appoint an advisory committee before 1 January 1995 comprising the following persons:
(a) 1 person who is an officer of the Department of Health, nominated by the Minister for Health;
(b) 1 person who is an officer of the National Parks and Wildlife Service, nominated by the Minister for the Environment;
(c) 1 person who is an officer of the New South Wales Meat Industry Authority, nominated by the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs;
(d) 1 person who is an officer of the Department of Agriculture, nominated by the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs;
(e) 1 person nominated by the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs who the Minister considers represents the interests of consumers;
(f) if the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs considers it necessary, 1 other person nominated by the Minister who possesses relevant technical knowledge regarding the public health aspects of the human consumption of game meat.
(2) The person referred to in subsection (1)(c) is to be the Chairperson of the advisory committee.
(3) The function of the advisory committee is to review the amendments made by this Act with respect to their impact on public health and any other issue regarding human consumption of game meat which the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs directs.
(4) The advisory committee is, in conducting its review, to seek submissions from the public on the matters referred to in subsection (3).
(5) The advisory committee is to make a written report of its findings to the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs before 1 July 1995.
(6) The Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs is to report the findings of the advisory committee to Parliament by 1 December 1995.
(7) The procedure for the calling of meetings of the advisory committee and the conduct of business at those meetings is to be determined by the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs.

This amendment seeks to establish the advisory committee.


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The Hon. R. S. L. JONES [12.17 a.m.]: This amendment and the other foreshadowed amendments are the payments to Judas Iscariot for tens of thousands of female kangaroos and their young. Judas Iscariot did a deal with the Government and this is the price.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause as amended agreed to.

Schedule 1

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE [12.18 a.m.]: I move:

Page 2, Schedule 1, lines 19-22. Omit all words on those lines, insert instead:
"game animal" means kangaroo;

As I foreshadowed in my speech at the second reading stage, this amendment will ensure that the bill refers to the human consumption of kangaroo meat as a game animal and does not include any other animal. If the Government proposes to do anything in respect of other animals, it must do so by way of separate legislation.

The Hon. R. S. L. JONES [12.19 a.m.]: This is a ridiculous amendment. Why not change the bill so that it simply talks about kangaroos only? Why not amend the words "game animal" throughout the bill? Why not change the reference to "kangaroo"? It is obviously too much trouble to do that.

Amendment agreed to.

Reverend the Hon. F. J. NILE [12.20 a.m.], by leave: I move the following amendments in globo:

Page 3, Schedule 1, lines 24-26. Omit all words on those lines, insert instead:
(a1) in the case of meat from a game animal, the animal was taken and killed in accordance with a licence under Part 9 of the National Parks and Wildlife Act 1974 and the carcass was processed at a meat processing plant; or
Page 3, Schedule 1, lines 29-31. Omit all words on those lines, insert instead:
(a1) in the case of meat from a game animal, the animal was taken and killed in accordance with a licence under Part 9 of the National Parks and Wildlife Act 1974 and the carcass was processed at a meat processing plant; or
Page 3, Schedule 1, lines 34-36. Omit all words on those lines, insert instead:
(a1) in the case of meat from a game animal, the animal was taken and killed in accordance with a licence under Part 9 of the National Parks and Wildlife Act 1974 and the carcass was processed at a meat processing plant; or
Page 4, Schedule 1, lines 6-8. Omit all words on those lines, insert instead:
(a1) in the case of meat from a game animal, the animal was taken and killed in accordance with a licence under Part 9 of the National Parks and Wildlife Act 1974 and the carcass was processed at a meat processing plant; or


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I am sure the Hon. R. S. L. Jones will enthusiastically support these amendments because basically they will prevent the widespread slaughter of kangaroos for human consumption. Kangaroo meat for human consumption will be taken from the cull numbers, which will be controlled by the National Parks and Wildlife Service.

The Hon. R. J. WEBSTER (Minister for Planning, and Minister for Housing) [12.21 a.m.]: The Government accepts the amendments.

Amendments agreed to.

Schedule as amended agreed to.

Bill reported from Committee with amendments and report adopted.