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Macquarie Fields Riots

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About this Item
Subjects -  Riots; Police: New South Wales; Road Safety; Macquarie Fields
Speakers - Brogden Mr John; Scully Mr Carl; Debnam Mr Peter; Knowles Mr Craig
Business - Matter of Public Importance


    MACQUARIE FIELDS RIOTS
Page: 14338


    Matter of Public Importance

    Mr JOHN BROGDEN (Pittwater—Leader of the Opposition) [5.03 p.m.]: It is urgent that this House debate the riots at Macquarie Fields today because of the Government's softly, softly approach to rioters in Macquarie Fields over the past four evenings. For the past four days the good residents of Macquarie Fields have been subjected to the sorts of riots that Australians should never have to see. They have been subjected to those riots by an element in that community who are undesirable and who, frankly, should feel the full force of the law. The good people who live there, whom I met yesterday, do not deserve to put up with the sort of urban violence that we have seen over the past four nights. This matter is urgent because of the Government's clear edict of a softly, softly approach at Macquarie Fields—the same edict that saw the Redfern situation get out of control.

    Ms Linda Burney: What would you have?

    Mr JOHN BROGDEN: I would have had a tough response from the police on day one so that these rioters understood that there is absolutely no way their sort of violence will ever be tolerated by any police officer in this State. Instead, we saw a recurrence in Macquarie Fields of what we saw in Redfern, which is police standing there and copping bricks, broken concrete and Molotov cocktails. They were subjected to unacceptable violence and their lives were put at risk. Police can wear as much protective gear as they like, but at the end of the day an angry mob who have no respect for law and order in this State have only one intention: to damage the police and harm individual police officers.

    Why has the Government's softly, softly approach over the past four nights forced police to enter the riot zone night after night and put their lives at risk? These rioters should have been crushed on day one. The full force of the law should have been brought to bear on these people from day one. The Government should not have directed the police to take a softly, softly approach. The Government is more interested in media management than in restoring law and order. This is despite the outstanding work of police on the ground. I praise the local police and the local police commanders, who have put themselves in harm's way night after night in an attempt to restore some semblance of civility at Macquarie Fields. What is the Government's view? I quote the transcript of an interview between Alan Jones and the Minister for Police on 2GB on 28 February. The Minister's view was that the police response was "measured and appropriate". Mr Jones said:

    What do you mean "measured and appropriate"?

    This is the mealy-mouthed stuff the public cannot cop. What is "measured and appropriate" about requiring police to stand there on four consecutive nights and cop it in the neck from violent rioters who have no interest in seeing peace restored to their community? Let me quote the transcript.

    [Interruption]

    It is highly appropriate that the Minister for Energy and Utilities has become an expert on sewage.

    [Interruption]

    The Minister can talk about standards. This morning on the ABC's AM program the Premier said:

    Police are not going to stand there as targets.

    What have the police done for the past four nights? They have stood there as targets, unable to respond in the manner they should, which was to crush the rioters at the commencement of the riots. The presenter then said:

    John Brogden's argument is it was left overnight to make some of the arrests that could have been made earlier and all the while it was damaging the police reputation and they were going soft on the people out there.

    The Premier said:

    This might come as a blinding revelation to you and the Opposition leader, the police need to have reasons to make arrests and that is they need to identify people who have been throwing bricks on video or catch them in the act of doing it. That is the way criminal law works.

    The ABC presenter then said:

    But blind Freddy would have been able to see that people were throwing bricks at people. They were standing 20 feet or less away from the police. Surely they could make arrests on the spot.

    If that paragon of right-wing commentary, the ABC, knows that the police can make an arrest, so do the rest of the people of New South Wales. It is clear to everyone in New South Wales that the Government is going softly, softly on these rioters. The Government is more interested in media management than anything else. The substantive issue is the police failure to arrest the likely suspect in this case, Jesse Kelly, when he presented on Saturday morning at Macquarie Fields police station. Let me inform you what Superintendent Les Wales, the commander on the ground, has said over the past day. Today's 7.30 2UE news reported:

    Superintendent Les Wales has told Mike Carlton that with the benefit of hindsight it might not have been the best decision.

    It then quoted Superintendent Wales as saying:

    That decision may have been not so sound in hindsight.

    What did the same man, the commander on the ground, say today on 2BL? Angela Catterns asked:

    How is a search going for the missing driver? It is reported today that he actually presented himself to police over the weekend on a separate matter. Was he not considered a person of interest at that point?

    Superintendent Wales said:

    He was but that was a decision taken by the investigation team at that time in relation to investigation priority. It was an accident.

    Here we have the commander on the ground indicating that the decision not to arrest Jesse Kelly when he walked into Macquarie Fields police station on Saturday morning was an accident. I ask the Government at what time on Saturday did Jesse Kelly present to Macquarie feels police station as per his bail conditions? At what time on Saturday did police have sufficient evidence to arrest and charge Jesse Kelly for his involvement in the police chase and the deaths of two passengers in the vehicle? If he was allowed to leave because of a higher priority investigation what matter is of a higher priority than dangerous driving leading to the deaths of two young men, endangering the lives of police in pursuit and the public at large?

    They are legitimate questions. It is legitimate for the people of New South Wales to know why the Minister and the Premier are saying one thing but the commander on the ground is saying it was an accident that he was not arrested and that with the benefit of hindsight they would have arrested him. Who is right and who is wrong? It is reasonable for the Opposition to bring to the attention of the people of New South Wales a clear conflict between the commander on the ground, Superintendent Wales, and the Government via the Premier and the Minister for Police.

    Within minutes of my arriving at Macquarie Fields yesterday the local people gave me the name of Jesse Kelly, which I then passed on to the police, as is appropriate. They also indicated that it was well known in the community who he was. Jesse Kelly has still not been arrested by the New South Wales police, but he was interviewed on Channel 10 news. Channel 10 news knows where he is but not the Carr Government. The man who was a person of interest, now the person the police are looking for, was interviewed by Channel 10 but he has not been arrested by minister's police. The people of Macquarie Fields deserve some support from the Government, and they are not getting it. The good residents of Macquarie Fields need a firm response from this Government and an end to the softly, softly approach.

    Mr CARL SCULLY (Smithfield—Minister for Police) [5.13 p.m.]: That was an absolutely disgusting performance by the Leader of the Opposition. The police need support. The Leader of the Opposition spent all his time criticising them. He has been talking up hill and down dale, bagging the police performance for one purpose—to get cheap political headlines. It is laughable that this public relations consultant has the gall to tell operational police what they should or should not be doing in the field. He has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. He attempts to tell the public that the police have not performed well and did not act with measure and objectivity. I rely on the police commissioner. He believes they acted with measure and appropriateness. It is appropriate that if people break the law and throw rocks and Molotov cocktails, the police should turn up, and they will continue to turn up.

    Mr John Brogden: Why weren't they arrested on the spot?

    Mr CARL SCULLY: Twenty-six people were arrested. The Leader of the Opposition invented a story yesterday. He said the Government had told the cops to go soft—an absolute falsehood, a disgusting lie. I assure the House that when I spoke to the commissioner, the deputy commissioner, the regional assistant commissioner and the area commander I said to them to make sure that the safety and wellbeing of our police officers are protected, but with that proviso we want these characters arrested. I told them to take the paddy wagons and if people breach the peace to lock them up. Nineteen arrests took place last night. This concoction by these characters opposite that we told the police to go soft is a complete falsehood. The Leader of the Opposition went on and on about Superintendent Wales' comment. I rely on the commissioner and on Superintendent Wales. He did a terrific job last night. He is the local area commander at Campbelltown.

    Mr Craig Knowles: I call him Les, I know him.

    Mr CARL SCULLY: And he is a terrific bloke. The Leader of the Opposition has chosen not to quote Superintendent Les Wales saying that it was a good decision at that time by that investigator. The Leader of the Opposition is trying to present that police somehow deliberately let him go. I will not repeat all that the Premier said earlier, but he succinctly said that the investigation as to who was the driver has not yet been completed. If the characters opposite were in office we would have Barry O'Farrell, Minister for Police, sitting in the command and control centre making operational decisions about who should be arrested. What a joke!

    I wonder about the seriousness of the Opposition's commitment to Macquarie Fields. The member for Macquarie Fields, who is a Minister, will be speaking later. I inquired about what interest members of the Opposition have shown, and what test could one perform to determine whether they are genuinely interested in Macquarie Fields. I always took the view that someone who lives in Pittwater or Vaucluse might not know where Macquarie Fields is, might not take much interest in it, and may not be aware that we have doubled police numbers at Macquarie Fields since we came to office. The test was about a month ago when the executive of the New South Wales Liberal Party met and decided whether it would run a candidate from its party for Federal Parliament, to talk and advocate on behalf of the Macquarie Fields community. It decided not to run a candidate in the Federal seat of Werriwa.

    Mr John Brogden: How is this relevant?

    Mr CARL SCULLY: It is very relevant, because the first time the Leader of the Opposition went out to Macquarie Fields was when he bumbled over the honourable member for Vaucluse and the Hon. John Ryan trying to get credit. The Hon. John Ryan said, "Peter, I am here as the shadow Minister for Western Sydney." I do not mind the shadow Minister for Police having a legitimate interest in policing, but it is not appropriate for the two of them to conduct their interfactional fighting outside Macquarie Fields police station.

    I strongly support the police, and this is an opportunity for the Opposition to say it supports the police too, to say that hooliganism will not be tolerated. It is intolerable for people to behave in this way. I am not going to have it said that because they are poor, because they have been denied opportunities that others take for granted, that is an excuse for lawlessness. It is not. As the commissioner said today, he came from a housing estate. I understand that the Leader of the Opposition in the other place came from a housing estate. The honourable member for Kogarah was one of the first residents in the Minto estate in the mid to late 1970s, and she spent her formative years there.

    People grow up with denied opportunities. They grow up in limited financial circumstances and in areas where they do it tough. Tens of thousands of people across south-west Sydney are doing it tough but they roll up their sleeves, they clean their homes, and they feed and educate their children. They do it tough, but they do not break the law. They do not throw Molotov cocktails at police. They do not engage in hooliganism and lawlessness. There is no excuse for that type of behaviour. The vast majority of people in Macquarie Fields are law-abiding, hard-working citizens. As the local member, the Minister for Infrastructure and Planning, and Minister for Natural Resources, knows, many of them do it tough. A number of residents have told me they support the actions taken by the police. A small number of people are engaging in unacceptable activity; some of them have already been arrested. If they keep doing it, the police will keep turning up. It has been said that the police have provoked the situation by their presence. I do not apologise for the police response. If people behave in this way, they will be arrested.

    There has been some rubbernecking in the area. Many people have gone to Macquarie Fields to observe the events. Some have even taken seats, treating it as a spectacle. Today I was fully briefed by Deputy Commissioner Dave Madden, who told me that the presence of these people was making the situation more difficult for police. The offenders do not stand in front of police and throw rocks at their shields. They throw rocks at police over houses, over fences and over the people who are observing the scene, and then they rush into dark alleyways. It is difficult for police to act quickly and arrest them. Where police have been able to identify the offenders in a crowd, they have pursued and arrested them.

    I have spoken to a couple of police officers who were assaulted. Last night I spoke to a policewoman who had been punched four times in the face. She is a courageous and brave individual who has worked in the police force for 17 years. Following the assault she was conveyed to hospital, where it was confirmed she did not have any fractures in her face. She then went back on the police line. I met a sergeant whose wrist had been broken. He said he felt his place was back there with his colleagues trying to restore peace and order in Macquarie Fields. I have nothing but the highest regard for the courage and commitment of our police officers. We rely on our police force for safety and security in the community. They are as disgusted as I am that they have gone to work at night in this situation—unfortunately, that is their working hours and office—and yet the Opposition's public relations consultant trashes their good names and good work, trawls over every decision that is made, and criticises their commanders.

    The notion of the Leader of the Opposition being an area commander is akin to the honourable member for Lane Cove launching the battle of Fallujah. Imagine it: the Leader of the Opposition, sitting in Pittwater, making decisions about the conduct of operations at the coalface of a riot. None of us can pretend to know how tough it is to be at the face of a riotous affray. It is a tough environment in which people in the field have to make decisions. I believe that the police response has been measured and appropriate. If the situation had turned out a lot worse than it has, the Opposition would have been the first to criticise. It would not matter how many people were arrested or how stern the police response was, it would not have been enough. I do not want the Opposition either criticising the police, who have done a terrific job, or inventing reasons for apologising for the behaviour of the individuals involved. Their behaviour has been nothing short of disgusting and outrageous.

    I will advise the New South Wales Police Association that they should call the Opposition to account for the disgraceful way it has undermined the good name of police officers and criticised the terrific work they have been doing at Macquarie Fields. The local member, who knows many of the officers in the area, appreciates the work they have done. Members of the community have told him they welcome the police in their area. In fact, they look to the police to maintain safety and order in the streets of Macquarie Fields. The Opposition members should be ashamed of themselves.

    Mr PETER DEBNAM (Vaucluse) [5.23 p.m.]: Before the Minister for Police races out of the Chamber I want to tell him that he has to do his homework. He cannot swan in here, full of rhetoric, for 10 minutes. He was a disaster as the Minister for Roads, and on the basis of his performance today and in the past couple of weeks he will be a disaster as the Minister for Police. He should come back here to learn about policing and Macquarie Fields. The Minister said there is not a "softly, softly" approach in policing in New South Wales. There has been a "softly, softly" approach for 10 years under the Carr Government. That is exactly the approach we have seen in Macquarie Fields over the past few days, the approach we see today, and the approach we will see tomorrow. If the Minister thinks it is not a disaster to have riots four nights running in a Sydney suburb, he has another think coming.

    There is a problem in Macquarie Fields, and it is not the suburb. Despite the rhetoric of the Government and the portrayal of stereotypes by the media over the last four days, the problem in Macquarie Fields is the criminals and thugs, who have not been arrested by the Carr Government. Macquarie Fields needs resources on the ground to arrest those individuals, get them into court, and gaol them. We have not seen that action from the Carr Government. The members on the Government bench—the biggest shareholder in Telstra is sitting over there—have not been to Macquarie Fields to see that every day there are no police officers on the streets. The police turn up in Macquarie Fields for the nightly war for the television cameras. If Government members do not believe me, they should go out there and have a look for themselves.

    The reason there are no police officers on the streets of Macquarie Fields is because the police force does not have the resources. In the past 18 months the Government has stripped police numbers from Macquarie Fields. Since the election the area has lost six officers. The local member can confirm that because the local police station is the local area command. The area is about to lose more. In the past 18 months New South Wales has lost 380 police officers, and we are about to lose another 320. We need law and order on the streets of Macquarie Fields; we need police on the streets interacting with the community. Over the past four days we have heard a great deal of rhetoric about public housing. Public housing tenants are the most vocal people in this State on law and order. I can say that 99 per cent of public housing tenants are good, decent people. But they have to put up with criminals living next door in halfway houses.

    We need law and order in this State. Public housing tenants would be the first to say that the Premier has failed them. The Carr Government has not delivered adequate policing in Macquarie Fields or in many other suburbs across the State. If Government members had a look at what was happening on the streets, they would see that the police simply do not have the resources. The police commander has enough resources to roll out a line of police at night. The staffer sitting behind the Chamber is shaking her head. I do not know whether she works for the Minister for Police. She should go and have a look at Macquarie Fields, the police web site, policing in New South Wales, or the local area commands. This State is losing police left, right and centre and we get a "softly, softly" approach. Perhaps she is from the office of the Minister for Housing. The constituents who live in public housing are the most vocal people in New South Wales on law and order. They have been screaming for assistance for 10 years, but they have not got any—not from the Premier, not from the Minister for Police, and not from the Minister for Housing.

    The Government must increase police numbers by 380—the number of officers it cut from the State. It must get police out on the streets of Macquarie Fields, interacting with the community, not standing in a line and taking part in nightly warfare for the television cameras. No-one wants that situation, but we have had it four nights running. The Government strategy on policing has been a total failure for Macquarie Fields and for the whole of New South Wales. Government members should get out to Macquarie Fields and see for themselves. If the honourable member for Bathurst and the honourable member for Londonderry went to Macquarie Fields and interacted with the community they would find that the community wants police on the streets. But they cannot have police on the streets because for the past 18 months the Government has cut police numbers, and it is about to cut another 320 police positions throughout the State. Rather than betray their electorates, Government members should go out into their communities and do the job they were elected to do. They should call for more police in their communities. [Time expired.]

    Mr CRAIG KNOWLES (Macquarie Fields—Minister for Infrastructure and Planning, and Minister for Natural Resources) [5.28 p.m.]: I am pleased to record in Hansard that I am a very proud member for Macquarie Fields representing my community. It is a privilege I have enjoyed for 15 years. The tragic events of the past several days need to be recorded properly in this place. First, I record my great and deep sympathy for the families of the two young men who died. No matter what their sins or their circumstances, the tragic death of two young men should be respected in terms of the grieving process that their families will now have to go through. I join with the parents of those two young men in a plea for calm among their friends. I was very pleased to read in a newspaper article today that the mother of one of the boys and the father of the other were reminding people that adding the tragedy of violence to the tragedy of death assists no-one, that it only serves to demean this whole tawdry experience.

    The greater tragedy, and this is where I choose to concentrate my remarks today, is the impact that the events of the past several days is going to have on the people in my community, particularly the younger members of my community, for years to come. It may have been coincidence, but last Friday night at almost exactly the same time as this incident occurred, literally about 400 yards down the road in a hall at the local high school, the police were doing what they normally do with a whole lot of young kids in Macquarie Fields: they were conducting a blue light disco for the school community. The headmaster of my local high school reported that 170 children attended the Friday night dance and not one incident was recorded. It was a typical night in my community. That is the Macquarie Fields that I know.

    The behaviour of a few criminals, and a few dills who tacked on behind them thinking it was sport to hurl a few house bricks at the coppers, does them no credit. Of course the police will deal with those criminals, as will the courts. Some members of this House and some people out in the community have crawled over each other make an issue of this. But when the caravan has moved on and the anxiety and stress has settled, as it inevitably will, this event will be a problem for children next year and the year after, and the year after that. I can tell honourable members that this has happened before and it breaks my heart to know that it is about to happen again. A couple of years from now those children will be sitting opposite a potential employer and, when asked where they live, they will say they live at Glenfield. They will not able to say they live at Macquarie Fields because they know that if they do they will not get the job.

    If they say they live at Macquarie Fields, they will find themselves having to explain that they were not part of a riot but were at a dance. Maybe they were at home in bed. Maybe on Monday they were at the swimming carnival at the local swimming pool, where young people were enjoying themselves. These are ordinary people getting on with their lives. Yes, many people live at Macquarie Fields in its 4,600 homes, of which about 1,500 are public housing accommodation. At the soccer field on Saturday morning people do not wear a label on their foreheads declaring "I live in public housing" or "I have a private residence." Their aspirations, like mine, are to continue to do the best they can for their families.

    When young people attend Scouts they all wear the same uniform. They regard their homes as their homes, whether it is public housing accommodation or a private residence. These people might be poor in some instances—I assure honourable members that many in Macquarie Fields are not, but some might be—but they are very proud. They know that the stigma of the past few days that has been placed on them is not the fault of the police, nor the Government, nor the Opposition, nor the media; it is the fault of a very small group of people, a few criminals who should get what they deserve.

    I heard on a radio broadcast today that the courts have already started to deal with these people. The greatest comfort I had was to know that when I walked into Macquarie Fields police station for a briefing the bloke who participated in the briefing was also a south-western Sydney resident who happens to be the Commissioner for Police. The greatest comfort my constituents have is in the fact that Ken Moroney is there, not only with his head but with his heart, driving the efforts to get those criminals out of our community and allow decent and ordinary people to get on with their lives. So, get off his back, let him do the job. Let us make sure the Macquarie Fields community gets a fair deal and that the young people get a chance to make a success of their lives.

    Mr JOHN BROGDEN (Pittwater—Leader of the Opposition) [5.33 p.m.], in reply: Such is the commitment of the Minister, the member for Macquarie Fields, to his community that he does not even live in his own electorate. What more needs to be said of this local member than that he has such little faith in his own community that he does not live there.

    Mr Craig Knowles: That is certainly not true. You know it is not true.

    Mr JOHN BROGDEN: I know it is true.

    Mr Craig Knowles: Don't talk about people's private circumstances. You know that's not true. You understand that it's not true. It's a lie. John, you are a liar! Cop that.

    Mr JOHN BROGDEN: The Minister's defensiveness indicates quite clearly that he is concerned about his constituents finding out that he does not live with them. We have heard today from the Minister for Police that he wants the safety and wellbeing of police officers to be ensured. Well, so does the Opposition! But how in hell is it ensured by forcing them night after night to have to front up to a riot, when, if this Government had allowed them to respond in a tough manner on night one, they would not have to be back there night after night.

    And, as the local member said, nor would the kids who live there, who go to school there, and who will grow up there and get jobs in that community have to be worried about the fact that not for one night or two nights, but for four nights the people of Sydney, New South Wales, Australia and indeed the world, through international vision of this event, have a view of Macquarie Fields that would have been different if the police had crunched the riot on the first night!

    Mr Steven Whan: Crunched?

    Mr JOHN BROGDEN: When I say "crunched", I mean crunched the riot on the first night. All that has happened is that the Government has allowed this to drag on night after night. We now have to endure the embarrassment on Channel 10 news at 5.00 p.m.—and, the Opposition understands, on news and current affairs programs on other television stations—of interviews with Jesse Kelly which the Opposition understands were filmed yesterday. Why was Jesse Kelly not arrested yesterday?

    The Opposition has three questions, none of which the Minister chose to answer in the class-based diatribe we always get from the Minister for Police. The one good thing about the Minister is that he is both bad and predictable at the same time. We always get the same sort of Mark Latham diatribe. It did not work for Mark Latham and, let us face it, it does not work for the people of any part of this State when it comes to talking about people's origins, where they lived, and where they grew up. That is not relevant. It is the sort of classic claptrap we get from this class-based Labor Party, which has not worked out that New South Wales is no longer a State that cares where people went to school, what their parents did, or where they grew up.

    Unlike the Labor Party the Coalition believes that people stand on their merits, not based on whether their fathers were members of Parliament—like the member for Monaro and the member for Macquarie Fields. Look at these hypocrites! Their pedigree is that daddy was a member of Parliament. That is their pedigree, both of them. God Almighty! One would think these people would wake up to themselves!

    Let me make it clear that there are three questions that this Government has failed to answer. First, at what time on Saturday did Jesse Kelly present to the Macquarie Fields Police Station in accordance with his bail conditions? Second, at what time on Saturday did police have sufficient evidence to arrest and charge Jesse Kelly for his involvement in the police chase and the deaths of two passengers in the vehicle? Thirdly, if Jesse Kelly was allowed to leave because of a "higher priority investigation", what matter is of a higher priority than dangerous driving leading to the deaths of two young men, and endangering the lives of the police in pursuit and the public at large?

    The people of New South Wales have a right to have answers to those questions. It may be that the answers will be sufficient to satisfy the community as to why Jesse Kelly was not arrested when he presented to Macquarie Fields Police Station, but the fact is that news organisations can contact him, but the Carr Government cannot. This is an embarrassment to the Government, an embarrassment it will not be able to slide away from as we head into another night of potential riots because of this Government's inaction.

    Discussion concluded.


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